Why would you pick heroes just to kill Spectre's illusions? That's hardly the most efficient way to go about it. A Spectre that goes Radiance -> Refresher would be absolutely crushed by most decent team compositions. Just because something works as a surprise card in a few snowbally public games it doesn't mean it's the best item ever.
refresher is just when you got high and the game is 35-10 in your team favor.
heart is for 30-30 later game.
refresher spec is legit like 4 or 5 battlefury on ember legit . no point get refresher when the other team have similar gold xp as you do.
no one will seriously consider refresher when play serious dota. but what's serious dota it is very subjective. one can consider ability draft very serious competitive dota game...
I think there is a point in getting refresher. Like, it delays another good item for you such as butterfly or heart or whatever, but it really doubles your ult damage.
For instance, i tested today on a level 25 sven with a level 25 spectre. Sven had two hearts, with 4300 HP and 14 HP armor and 25% magic resist.
Below is only the ult damage.
1150 damage - radiance and diffusal
1320 damage - radiance and diffusal and manta
1330 damage - radiance and diffusal and bfly
1500 damage - radiance and diffusal and manta and bfly
1700 damage - radiance and diffusal and manta and bfly and daedalus
2300 damage - radiance and diffusal and refresher
Note that by only having DPS items, without getting heart or anything, the maximum damage your ult will deal is 1700. Refresher however, beats having Manta, Bfly and Daedalus as a single item that is only 1/3 the price. It's legit.
Edit: You have to take into consideration the move speed bonus that manta provides as well, i made some calculations and it seems that without the manta move speed boost your damage result = .52% of the DPS provided above, and with manta that is 60%.
Edit2: Another thing you have to take into consideration is that the bonus doubled by refresher is almost 50% desolate damage, so when the enemy is grouped together, you'll get 50% of the damage, whilst the damage progression with items like manta butterfly and daedalus remains the same.
Without desolate:
650 damage - radiance and diffusal
750 damage - radiance and diffusal and manta
750 damage - radiance and diffusal and bfly
850 damage - radiance and diffusal and manta and bfly
1000 damage - radiance and diffusal and manta and bfly and daedalus
1300 damage - radiance and diffusal and refresher
Sange and Yasha can be dissembled I think, what about going boots -> drums -> S&Y then ult orb then manta recipie? Would make you pretty tanky with nice move speed and main prior to manta.
I don't know, i just hate sange and yasha. For me it's a trash tier item for every hero without exception.
The maim is horrible, bash and skadi is a lot better for lockdown.
Hell, even orb of venom is better than the maim.
You wouldn't build it for the main, you'd build it for the hp (it's more than a vit booster), combine it with yasha for even better stats until you disassemble to complete manta. Main is just added bonus.
like i said before, sange is alternative to drum / vangard. you don't actually need to build s&y. you can sell sange late game like you sell vangard/ drum late game. or you can build halberd if against some crazy ursa.
S&Y is ok if you buy sange and the manta. but to manta you probably better have diffusal / rad first to maximze the manta effect.
I gave the refresherbuilt a shot and relentless is right. I picked my radi incredibly late (min 30), since my support prefered pulling and letting me solo against clock.
The game was somehow even till this point. After radi I farmed refresher really fast. Every time I cast my ulti twice was instant double or tripplekill. The supports just can not stand 14 sek haunt. Thats whats left over is easy to cleanup even with refresher.
Another nice thing about refresher is, that is allows you to buy RoH and you dont have to buy a vg. Going for tankystuff is waste of the damagepotential. If you want to play a tank, pick bristle.
A HoT gives me 1200 EHP and 220 Damage retunr. Thats simply waste of gold.
Why would you pick heroes just to kill Spectre's illusions? That's hardly the most efficient way to go about it. A Spectre that goes Radiance -> Refresher would be absolutely crushed by most decent team compositions. Just because something works as a surprise card in a few snowbally public games it doesn't mean it's the best item ever.
relentless being relentless again. Heart > Refresher no questions asked
But I agree that refressher could be used in certain situations
refresher is just when you got high and the game is 35-10 in your team favor.
heart is for 30-30 later game.
refresher spec is legit like 4 or 5 battlefury on ember legit . no point get refresher when the other team have similar gold xp as you do.
no one will seriously consider refresher when play serious dota. but what's serious dota it is very subjective. one can consider ability draft very serious competitive dota game...
I think there is a point in getting refresher. Like, it delays another good item for you such as butterfly or heart or whatever, but it really doubles your ult damage.
For instance, i tested today on a level 25 sven with a level 25 spectre. Sven had two hearts, with 4300 HP and 14 HP armor and 25% magic resist.
Below is only the ult damage.
1150 damage - radiance and diffusal
1320 damage - radiance and diffusal and manta
1330 damage - radiance and diffusal and bfly
1500 damage - radiance and diffusal and manta and bfly
1700 damage - radiance and diffusal and manta and bfly and daedalus
2300 damage - radiance and diffusal and refresher
Note that by only having DPS items, without getting heart or anything, the maximum damage your ult will deal is 1700. Refresher however, beats having Manta, Bfly and Daedalus as a single item that is only 1/3 the price. It's legit.
Edit: You have to take into consideration the move speed bonus that manta provides as well, i made some calculations and it seems that without the manta move speed boost your damage result = .52% of the DPS provided above, and with manta that is 60%.
Edit2: Another thing you have to take into consideration is that the bonus doubled by refresher is almost 50% desolate damage, so when the enemy is grouped together, you'll get 50% of the damage, whilst the damage progression with items like manta butterfly and daedalus remains the same.
Without desolate:
650 damage - radiance and diffusal
750 damage - radiance and diffusal and manta
750 damage - radiance and diffusal and bfly
850 damage - radiance and diffusal and manta and bfly
1000 damage - radiance and diffusal and manta and bfly and daedalus
1300 damage - radiance and diffusal and refresher
"Just because something works as a surprise card in a few snowbally public games it doesn't mean it's the best item ever."
http://dotabuff.com/players/116766145
solo 65.22% WR 5.64 KDA
Sange and Yasha can be dissembled I think, what about going boots -> drums -> S&Y then ult orb then manta recipie? Would make you pretty tanky with nice move speed and main prior to manta.
I don't know, i just hate sange and yasha. For me it's a trash tier item for every hero without exception.
The maim is horrible, bash and skadi is a lot better for lockdown.
Hell, even orb of venom is better than the maim.
You wouldn't build it for the main, you'd build it for the hp (it's more than a vit booster), combine it with yasha for even better stats until you disassemble to complete manta. Main is just added bonus.
like i said before, sange is alternative to drum / vangard. you don't actually need to build s&y. you can sell sange late game like you sell vangard/ drum late game. or you can build halberd if against some crazy ursa.
S&Y is ok if you buy sange and the manta. but to manta you probably better have diffusal / rad first to maximze the manta effect.
I gave the refresherbuilt a shot and relentless is right. I picked my radi incredibly late (min 30), since my support prefered pulling and letting me solo against clock.
The game was somehow even till this point. After radi I farmed refresher really fast. Every time I cast my ulti twice was instant double or tripplekill. The supports just can not stand 14 sek haunt. Thats whats left over is easy to cleanup even with refresher.
Another nice thing about refresher is, that is allows you to buy RoH and you dont have to buy a vg. Going for tankystuff is waste of the damagepotential. If you want to play a tank, pick bristle.
A HoT gives me 1200 EHP and 220 Damage retunr. Thats simply waste of gold.
for those refresher spec.
did you refresh after the ult is over (double length) or you summon 10 haunt ?
I never actually believe the length of spec ult matters. I usually do lv1 ult at lv6 and lv2 lv3 ult at lv15 lv16 or later.
Does the haunt stack? Dp's ult doesn't stack so you must cast it sequentially but razor's and shadow shaman's do.
razor's ult do ? nice to know.
refresher orb on razor legit ?
Refresher Razor is legit, have you never seen this? (Epilepsy warning)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSGTXkS1CxQ
After Aghs you probably wanna go Refresher if you don't need BKB or already have one.
wow. so fun. gonna try to tonight.
If seen razor refresher on merlini. Its legit.
It is legit at every kind of game in my opinon, you do need a bkb too i guess, or some hp