General DiscussionPicking roles before matchmaking.

yeah but sometimes you want to

-have a trilane in your safe
-have an aggro trilane in your offlane
-have a dual offlane
-have tiny+io mid
-have solo safelane

Not going to work

Also dota isnt static. your safelane support might want to roam

maybe after seeing enemies pick you want to switch lanes between offlaner and safelaner carry+supp

Maybe this works in LoL (lol) but dota is far mor complex, you couldnt punish people picking or playing something else

Ah, you mean like the thing LoL has?

I know its not static and you could still work that out once your in the picking phase.

The problem that would be avoided with this are those games where you have 2 mid only players or have a team where non of the players are willing to support. (which seems to be a real problem in the 2.5k range iam playing in atm)

Also if I for example am practicing a certain hero in a specific lane you could still play it when you wanted to instead of having to pick another role simply because the team needs it.

@caught in the afterglow

I would not know I never played League.

it would be nice but it should be like

pos 1
pos 2
pos 3
pos 4
pos 5

But then you get an overflow of pos 1 and pos 2 players and it's basically the same

its basically not the same because u get a player assigned to each role, idgaf id rather queue 20 min and have a role i want than queue 3 and play with complete morons who refuse to play anything but mid or carry even when their 1k below average

i think the queue time might become really long

believe it or not everything you just said fits in the pos 1-5 system @thanks.

what happens when you are rtz and cant stop feeding and ur support wants to start carrying as a warlock

So? I'm a support player, but If i actually tryhard want to improve my mmr I have to pick a core or my winrate will be 50.01%

Most times at 1-4k (probably even higher) the supports are just the ones that go "whatever I'll just pick support and loose the game"

maybe at 5k and higher this will work.

I'm only picking support when I have no choice. So if i have a choice i will search as core --> queue time 2 hours

Ofc everything fits the 1-5 positions scheme.
how would you controle that though?

yea thats just the shitty thing about dota in low mmr 1-4k. the only way to have the most game impact is to play core. sure supports are still important, but not as much. u can make more mistakes and it doesnt matter.

@Jacked like said above I wouldn't mind waiting a couple of minutes longer for a match when in ranked... There is nothing more annoying then having to calm down your team mates because they instantly start flaming because they can not pick their desired lanes.

Also you would be able to que in with all positions so you avoid longer waiting times.

it should be a preference

□ Core
□ Support
and matchmaking pairs 3 cores and 2 supports
so at least you get a core role and solves problems related to roles being too static

no cause i dont wanna play fucking offlane

There's a thing called 'Captains Mode'

i like the idea tbh. but im just thinking about all these little matchmaking preferences (existing ones included) that fragment the pool and it kind makes the system less perfect (in terms of random matching, not game satisfaction) and i cant help but think it might be abuseable.

100% sure that within half a day of having 8
minute queue times people would search as support and then pick core....come on its the internet

Even when in captain's mode on solo queue, everyone will still be just announcing what they want to play as(mostly core) withouth even glancing at enemy picks, which wouldn't make it any different if you queued all pick ranked

If this is put into test then 'random' should be removed and they should shortlist heroes according to their roles then it might not be abusable.

^but then how do you get carry venges, or support weavers with that system?

so just let ppl pick whatever they want, and eventually if picking support is really game winning> more ppl would do it. right?

I guess you would be assigned a position and if people get pos 5 and go mid invo you could report them for "position abuse" for example and the game could easily see that it is true (just like dotabuff does) and they go low prio.

@thanks I honestly dont think queing times wont be that much of an issue since dota is a very popular game and when you play ranked people rather have a cooperating team then a fighting one.

It begs the question as a non-LOL player. Ive seen how their role system works, but how are players there able to actually like playing support enough for them to select that role as their main, ever more so often than in dota?

@Reese @Aimer-
Just organize it like the battle pass fantasy challenge: Core, Offlane, Support.

Well this shit ain't viable so this thread is meaningless

I think the role system could be implemented as a separate mode from your regular ranked shitfest, leaving only players willing to wait through queue times or pick support to have their fun and the rest of jungle LCs and offlane snipers enthusiasts unaffected

For each person that is concious of their queue times, perhaps they wouldn't mind just checking every box and playing what their team needs.

@Haze why is it not viable? I think there are a lot of people frustrated with the whining that goes on a lot now in ranked.

the problem with dota (i dono about lol or why they are able to do it) is the concept of snowballing on farm as a carry that makes support abilities less impactful (at least at lower skill levels). basically its asymmetry of power and game impact. of course the frog has been trying to make supporting less dreadful and more impactful, but its still a problem

Ik that Fishwaking but this is just not viable as Dota is like chess , it has almost unlimited possibility. Anything can happen.
Well I had thought bout this too as I play LoL too
But its just as explained by jacked. Its not viable but what Mitsubishi said could be used but then again who doesn't want this system? Everyone will use this system and it will be abuse badly

^if the earlier mentioned system for reporting role abuse is used(which should be paired with an overwatch system similar to CSGO I think) it should keep players from misdeclaring their roles in such a game mode

@f@thom in league ranked, youre made to declare 2 preferred roles. From that, the system weighs in which role x player should be put, if y is a better mid than x etc. Being able to select all boxes would leave the system fully abusable

@Haze Well the fact LoL has it (which I wasn't aware off) makes it a lot more viable to me actually..

Thing is every game has a mid safe and offlane core, and one or 2 sups.
When I que in for a game of ranked I want to play a serious game of dota and not play a fucking kindergarten teacher just to make sure nobody will feed or do stupid shit just because they can't get over themselves.

Dota is one of the main E-sports atm and I feel a change like this could enhance the game greatly.. You may be right but that is why we are on a forum right? As I think a lot of people share my opinion

dota has too much inbuilt flexibility that theres no such thing as fixed roles. i could basically pick pos 5 and pick a CK. and in one patch i might be flamed, and another patch it is totally accpetable.

we all know dota is a dead game because there is no new players so it doesnt matter which system you want it will not work anyway

Fucking retarded

I just write "team you can chose for me to be mid, carry or game ruiner"

If I really want to play mid or carry specifically I write "carry or tiny tossing u whole game"

what happens if u meet another mid or feed guy

I don't actually ruin by feeding. Rather I pick high base damage hero (Roof/Tiny) and buy QB and contest the lane. After laneing stage is over, I play normally.

Once I took Roof and went dual mid with SF versus Invoker. Had copypasted "Kill SF Voker" and was moving to side every time Voker came to harass. He was taking lot of creep damage, as final hit flew to kill SF I gave him armor and Invoker was out of position and died to my OoV autoattacks. We won the game.

Also no matter what happens I play until Ancient is destroyed. Example game: https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2816344862

AM sold all items mins 4, Pudge followed in his footsteps and was hooking us to enemies. Luckily I was playing my trademark offlane Sniper. So Axe, Tinker and myself won the game 3v5. Around 25 mins into the game AM came to his senses and started warding and dewarding. I sent him to low prio anyways.

I don't get what the big deal is about supporting.
Often I prefer to go mid with Invoker, or some various safe lane carry, but if someone else instant locks those positions (of course they are stupid), but instead of flaming, just pick some other high impact support.
Favorites are Slardar, Pudge and CM. With those heroes, you pretty much secure the early game, put pressure all over the map, and can easily provide farm for your team's pos. 1.

The main reason you'd want pre-called positions, is to have players not fight for positions. A better solution would be for DotA to brainstorm some ways to make players less toxic. Dunno how they'd accomplish it, but that is what is more important.

^ because I like damaging towers and raxes?

id rather have low queue times, so if there is a way for me to have low queue times and this I don't mind.

Also, I think that before entering a new tier of MMR (maybe in 1k intervals), DotA should cap you, and force you to answer questions you should know the answer to if you are truly x MMR.

The biggest headache I have is when players don't have simple game knowledge. Of course, if you remind your SF that the Manta he just spent a shitton of gold on can dispell that silence, or be used to dodge that Lina ult - they say "I KNOW, STFU" wherein reality, they more than likely didn't know, or forgot, and should just listen.

@Positive Core Player, there are supports who can do building damage. Enigma, Jakiro, Veno all come to mind.

I guess newb is a banned term now?