I guess all things considered so far the best idea is still what ReGaurds suggested.
Maybe it could be modified like the spirit bear so that PL had to be within 1200 range for his images to attack. That would preserve all his teamfight power and his scouting and jungling ability while removing the "cancer lancer" effect. Most importantly if you saw PL images attack you would know he was at least close enough that you could see him with true-sight flying vision.
Even when PL had 20% lower networth the first time he and gyro fight in that game, PL won easily. Gyro was ahead on farm for quite a while but eventually he can't keep up with cancer lancer. Gyro can be kited...its much harder than with many carries but still possible. PL can't be kited.
I found it funny how so many ppl started crying PL being op after the G-league finals iG vs LGD.int game 4. Yes that game is perfect demonstation of the power of PL but it also shows how PL can be defeated. LGD.int just made some serious mistakes. Also u can see how the game is not about 1 man but about synergy of heroes and team play. YYF with his bat made the comeback and Faith with his Kotl kept the game going long enough for that to happen.
PL is the strongest late game hero no doubt about it. But it ain't as easy as some of u think to get PL into that late game with farm and lvls.
^^^ this is exactly right. Its a lot easier to get heros like naix, AM, lone druid, or gyro started. Specific heroes, lanes, and play style are required to ensure PL gets off to a good start. That is a kind of balance I guess, but its very hard to get Spectre, Void, and Riki started too and they have the same late game counters that all other carries do.
@Muumimamma, +100000, everytime someone says "PL turtled the whole game and he won the game after was clearly losing the game" and ofc forgetting to mention that kotl was the one who gave them the ability to turtle it for 15 minutes until its minute 60 where PL is having 2 heart and bla
Thnx for heads up, i actually tried to google to see if i had put it in the wrong thread, but no results showed up.
@You_Got_Fukt - You keep talking about me, instead of talking about what i state. Im not talking about my PL games, im talking about competitive and skilled games. No further explanation needed as i can see Relentless has done the job well here. Im a random a little above average player, and i just happen to understand the mechanics of this game, i never stated im a pro player or anything. Just like tobiwan, he has lots of experience with commentating, but playing dota isnt going so well...
@Mapzor - Yeah, you can ofc. place wards early on during the laning stage where PL needs to farm to get rid of him that way, no doubt about that (just like u can do to any other carry), but later on he can push at no risk as relentless stated (and thats also why ur support has to support u so u can farm safily early on, a kotl works really well here). I remember in the defense 3 that happened to be the case where Na'vi faced Empire i think it was. Na'vi ran an extremely aggresive trilane to shut down the PL of Empires farm, they managed to kill him like 2-3 times, but as they were not able to end the game before the 40 minute mark this game was gg, they basically had this game in hand, but the supports gave him tp scrolls so PL could tp back and forth between towers to constantly be sitting on free farm (besides the fact that PL got completely shut down early on the first 10 minutes) but eventually at one point the PL got his diffusal, the PL got his manta, and as Empire managed to keep Na'vi busy in other lanes where they tried to pressure towers to end fast, the PL got his farm up, and this game got past the 40 minute mark and then we all know what happened. Na'vi executed a lot better than empire, they had more map control than Empire, they were dominating all lanes, but at some point PL managed to get his farm up and this game was basically over. They couldnt do anything about it.
If youre behind with 20k gold and 20k experience and 2 sets of racks everyone will be like "gg" but when going up against a PL, and PL is being on the team being behind with 20k gold and exp, you will never know... His pushing capability is just insane.
@Toeffelhelten
Invalid argument, u know why?
because Na`Vi got no carry atm, they r pretending Xboct is carrying, but he isnt a carry, just playing some heroes which should be carries, sadly, he never carried Na`Vi to win, well, maybe he carried 2 games with LS, 1 with juggernaut, and maybe threw 10-15, and couldnt carry 30..
most of the games that Na`Vi wins r because of Dendi, LOH (in the past), as u saw in the internationals, and now they win SOMETIMES by the help of Dendi, Kuroky only, ppy might do some gd moves, but he never played a hero that controls the game..
I cant remember who carried that game, but xboct did a very good job in some of those d3 games by soloing the offlane with luna and carry with her. But yeah, i wouldnt rely too much on him either.
But tbh, im not even sure if it was Na'vi - Empire, it could as well have been nth - empire or dignitas, but all i know is that they did a gr8 job trying to shut the PL down and still managed to lose the game. So the point still stands...
It was the same tournament in which dendi was in his completely own world with sunstrike.
And Na'vis drafting was sloppy as hell, i mean, they drafted some really wierd heroes i believe, like it would be Invoker/Storm/Windrunner/Batrider/Luna lineup or some kind of drunk lineups, but Dendi with invoker was just unstoppable. I think he missed one kill with sunstrike during that game....
"I don't think you even know who na'vi are"
"These are the only games in which he was picked out of the last 45 games in the G1- league"
LMAO listen to yourself fool
99% of people in this game are average pub players, probably 75% are at high-V.high rated. Most solo queueing. PL is such a bitch hero to counter and changes the whole game, like Nyx but wayyy moer annoying to counter. This game shouldn't be balanced JUST around 100 little pale guys meeting at tournaments and getting paid 10/hr to play dota2.
Its pretty clear this hero needs some adjustments, maybe the illusions should give a small amount of gold+exp. Maybe the walk should be re worked. I dont know. but almost everyone can agree.
Im just an average player so i dont have the answers, but he should be looked at IMO.
^I was referring to Na'Vi doing stupid strats and playing like retards in a shitload of competitive games , someone taking one of their obviously troll games seriously was just a clear sign that he doesn't have the slightest clue about how Na'Vi go about their business, yet continually claims that he has played this game for 10 years and how he has watched more competitive dota.
The reason that this game is balanced around competitive matches is because its not right at all to try and balance a game around matches where it is assumed that one team has better players.
If you want to balance the game around a scenario where there is a PL who knows how to last hit creeps against enemies that run into the enemy tower before the creep wave spawns then you aren't going to create a very good game.
Trying to work out your numbers here, 99% of people are average pub players, yet 75% are V.High rated? The numbers from normal -> VH are 83%, 13%, 4% respectively, and you can imagine that a large portion of the 83% are just casuals.
It's pretty clear that this hero needs some adjustments? On what grounds? Any carry with a lot of farm is a big threat lategame, I can say that to just about every carry/semi-carry in the game. They all have their own strengths and weaknesses, and PL certainly has a lot of the latter which has seen him been picked a hell of a lot less, and still been unsuccessful a lot of the times he is picked.
As for pub games, I can list you plenty of heroes that if played to a decent level, can shut down PL quite effectively.
You guys seem to think the fact that a hero has a strength makes them broken, when in reality its just one aspect of the hero that is balanced by not only his weaknesses, but the strengths that other carries have as well. You can't take a single hero out and try to evaluate him based on his abilities, it needs to be in comparison to what else is in the game. And not only alternate heroes, but counters too.
"Any carry with a lot of farm is a big threat lategame"
PL Differs in that way he can participate in the team fight, deal huge amounts of damage, he can push racks, all while he is at no risk of dying, while he is farming in the jungle like a boss.
A fed and fat as fuck Lone Druid can be shut down much more easily, stun him, nuke him, disable him, hex him, gl doing that to a PL that isnt even there.
sven practically kills everyone late game, and he doesnt even need many items.
the real dude who should be nerfed is sven honestly.
i once was playing slark, i have sny, ptread , heart , abyssal, orchid and assault.
and i stole like, idk my base damage was 2xx. the sven had only abyssal and daedalus and m0m + ptread.
we fought head on and he killed me like stepping on a lizard lol
this is maybe because slark is a lizard, the problem with sven is that, u only need 1 disable, and he can be focused to death, for example, if LD's bear entangles him in a fight, he is pretty much useless for about 3 seconds, in these 3 seconds u can pretty much rape his team mates, unless the match isnt even, and sven doesnt have an escape mechanism, or fast farming power, and he a str carry, so as the game goes on, many carries can still outfarm and outcarry him, an abyssal should be the choice, goes through magic immunity
Super late game Sven vs PL is a very very easy win for PL...the Navi vs Mouz game I discussed earlier was exactly that. In fact Sven even had Magnus empowering him to help also...PL still easily crushed him several times. Yes sven can clear images in a maybe 3 hits, meantime PL takes 1/2 his life and 1/2 his mana as well if sven does not use bkb. Then PL sends more images in few seconds later...and takes the other half of svens life...PL took zero dmg. It so one-sided its absurd. Sven's only chance is PL being a total moron and walking up to take the cleave dmg on his main hero. The exact same thing happens with Tiny or whatever other cleave effect you want. Clearing the images means nothing, PL will just have more in a few seconds and he took no dmg...meanwhile the images will kill any late game hero no matter how tanky in the few seconds it takes to clear the images out.
Guys. Ever heard of GANKING carries ? or PUSHING them ? Or , in case of PL DUSTS , SENTRIES ? GEMS ? PL is a HARD CARRY. Let him farm and you will get what you deserve. Like ANY OTHER CARRY. And the game NEEDS a hero that puts the game on timer, that FORCES you to act and go fight. None hero can make that effect on the game and I am grateful to PL as he is now for that. I do not play him much though, I wish I did. Busy supporting, I guess.
Watched a team game where a PL got a five kill at 24 minutes...that team won in 34. These numbers are approximate but I thought of this thread when it happened. It seems PL can be pretty huge pretty quickly. He had Radiance, Diffusal and Heart. GG.
Of course if he has radiance, diffusal and heart (especially uncontested) he's going to rape your family in front of you and put the pictures on youtube. The guy doesn't open with it. If he had all that at 34 minutes someone really just let him farm for too long. If you let PL farm, you're gonna get hurt. That doesn't mean he's OP.
I guess all things considered so far the best idea is still what ReGaurds suggested.
Maybe it could be modified like the spirit bear so that PL had to be within 1200 range for his images to attack. That would preserve all his teamfight power and his scouting and jungling ability while removing the "cancer lancer" effect. Most importantly if you saw PL images attack you would know he was at least close enough that you could see him with true-sight flying vision.
Even when PL had 20% lower networth the first time he and gyro fight in that game, PL won easily. Gyro was ahead on farm for quite a while but eventually he can't keep up with cancer lancer. Gyro can be kited...its much harder than with many carries but still possible. PL can't be kited.
I found it funny how so many ppl started crying PL being op after the G-league finals iG vs LGD.int game 4. Yes that game is perfect demonstation of the power of PL but it also shows how PL can be defeated. LGD.int just made some serious mistakes. Also u can see how the game is not about 1 man but about synergy of heroes and team play. YYF with his bat made the comeback and Faith with his Kotl kept the game going long enough for that to happen.
PL is the strongest late game hero no doubt about it. But it ain't as easy as some of u think to get PL into that late game with farm and lvls.
^^^ this is exactly right. Its a lot easier to get heros like naix, AM, lone druid, or gyro started. Specific heroes, lanes, and play style are required to ensure PL gets off to a good start. That is a kind of balance I guess, but its very hard to get Spectre, Void, and Riki started too and they have the same late game counters that all other carries do.
@Muumimamma, +100000, everytime someone says "PL turtled the whole game and he won the game after was clearly losing the game" and ofc forgetting to mention that kotl was the one who gave them the ability to turtle it for 15 minutes until its minute 60 where PL is having 2 heart and bla
w/e looks like my post got deleted somehow.
nah, you just put it in the wrong thread
take all his towers before he finishes 3 items then consolidate ur lead either by split pushing or base seiging
Thnx for heads up, i actually tried to google to see if i had put it in the wrong thread, but no results showed up.
@You_Got_Fukt - You keep talking about me, instead of talking about what i state. Im not talking about my PL games, im talking about competitive and skilled games. No further explanation needed as i can see Relentless has done the job well here. Im a random a little above average player, and i just happen to understand the mechanics of this game, i never stated im a pro player or anything. Just like tobiwan, he has lots of experience with commentating, but playing dota isnt going so well...
@Mapzor - Yeah, you can ofc. place wards early on during the laning stage where PL needs to farm to get rid of him that way, no doubt about that (just like u can do to any other carry), but later on he can push at no risk as relentless stated (and thats also why ur support has to support u so u can farm safily early on, a kotl works really well here). I remember in the defense 3 that happened to be the case where Na'vi faced Empire i think it was. Na'vi ran an extremely aggresive trilane to shut down the PL of Empires farm, they managed to kill him like 2-3 times, but as they were not able to end the game before the 40 minute mark this game was gg, they basically had this game in hand, but the supports gave him tp scrolls so PL could tp back and forth between towers to constantly be sitting on free farm (besides the fact that PL got completely shut down early on the first 10 minutes) but eventually at one point the PL got his diffusal, the PL got his manta, and as Empire managed to keep Na'vi busy in other lanes where they tried to pressure towers to end fast, the PL got his farm up, and this game got past the 40 minute mark and then we all know what happened. Na'vi executed a lot better than empire, they had more map control than Empire, they were dominating all lanes, but at some point PL managed to get his farm up and this game was basically over. They couldnt do anything about it.
If youre behind with 20k gold and 20k experience and 2 sets of racks everyone will be like "gg" but when going up against a PL, and PL is being on the team being behind with 20k gold and exp, you will never know... His pushing capability is just insane.
@Toeffelhelten
Invalid argument, u know why?
because Na`Vi got no carry atm, they r pretending Xboct is carrying, but he isnt a carry, just playing some heroes which should be carries, sadly, he never carried Na`Vi to win, well, maybe he carried 2 games with LS, 1 with juggernaut, and maybe threw 10-15, and couldnt carry 30..
most of the games that Na`Vi wins r because of Dendi, LOH (in the past), as u saw in the internationals, and now they win SOMETIMES by the help of Dendi, Kuroky only, ppy might do some gd moves, but he never played a hero that controls the game..
I cant remember who carried that game, but xboct did a very good job in some of those d3 games by soloing the offlane with luna and carry with her. But yeah, i wouldnt rely too much on him either.
But tbh, im not even sure if it was Na'vi - Empire, it could as well have been nth - empire or dignitas, but all i know is that they did a gr8 job trying to shut the PL down and still managed to lose the game. So the point still stands...
It was the same tournament in which dendi was in his completely own world with sunstrike.
And Na'vis drafting was sloppy as hell, i mean, they drafted some really wierd heroes i believe, like it would be Invoker/Storm/Windrunner/Batrider/Luna lineup or some kind of drunk lineups, but Dendi with invoker was just unstoppable. I think he missed one kill with sunstrike during that game....
Agree with ming . you guys talk way too much
"I don't think you even know who na'vi are"
"These are the only games in which he was picked out of the last 45 games in the G1- league"
LMAO listen to yourself fool
99% of people in this game are average pub players, probably 75% are at high-V.high rated. Most solo queueing. PL is such a bitch hero to counter and changes the whole game, like Nyx but wayyy moer annoying to counter. This game shouldn't be balanced JUST around 100 little pale guys meeting at tournaments and getting paid 10/hr to play dota2.
Its pretty clear this hero needs some adjustments, maybe the illusions should give a small amount of gold+exp. Maybe the walk should be re worked. I dont know. but almost everyone can agree.
Im just an average player so i dont have the answers, but he should be looked at IMO.
^I was referring to Na'Vi doing stupid strats and playing like retards in a shitload of competitive games , someone taking one of their obviously troll games seriously was just a clear sign that he doesn't have the slightest clue about how Na'Vi go about their business, yet continually claims that he has played this game for 10 years and how he has watched more competitive dota.
The reason that this game is balanced around competitive matches is because its not right at all to try and balance a game around matches where it is assumed that one team has better players.
If you want to balance the game around a scenario where there is a PL who knows how to last hit creeps against enemies that run into the enemy tower before the creep wave spawns then you aren't going to create a very good game.
Trying to work out your numbers here, 99% of people are average pub players, yet 75% are V.High rated? The numbers from normal -> VH are 83%, 13%, 4% respectively, and you can imagine that a large portion of the 83% are just casuals.
It's pretty clear that this hero needs some adjustments? On what grounds? Any carry with a lot of farm is a big threat lategame, I can say that to just about every carry/semi-carry in the game. They all have their own strengths and weaknesses, and PL certainly has a lot of the latter which has seen him been picked a hell of a lot less, and still been unsuccessful a lot of the times he is picked.
As for pub games, I can list you plenty of heroes that if played to a decent level, can shut down PL quite effectively.
You guys seem to think the fact that a hero has a strength makes them broken, when in reality its just one aspect of the hero that is balanced by not only his weaknesses, but the strengths that other carries have as well. You can't take a single hero out and try to evaluate him based on his abilities, it needs to be in comparison to what else is in the game. And not only alternate heroes, but counters too.
"Any carry with a lot of farm is a big threat lategame"
PL Differs in that way he can participate in the team fight, deal huge amounts of damage, he can push racks, all while he is at no risk of dying, while he is farming in the jungle like a boss.
A fed and fat as fuck Lone Druid can be shut down much more easily, stun him, nuke him, disable him, hex him, gl doing that to a PL that isnt even there.
Played a game recently where a tiny raped late game pl illusions in a second or two. Was great.
Tiny is one of the best counters to PL
Links not related to Tiny
http://dotabuff.com/matches/107181280
http://dotabuff.com/matches/157961046
http://dotabuff.com/matches/140791716
http://dotabuff.com/matches/137353186
i couldnt find a game in my profiles where i lost to a PL
any carry that is fat is dangerous?
lets try,
lvl 25 sven vs lvl 25 pl
i'll handicap this shit
sven gets m0m , battle fury , daedalus , power treads. pl gets any item he wants.
both of them fight. lets see who wins
ofc Sven wins, but ppl r too dumb to think about counters, and whine about the hero being op, because they dont know how to counter him
sven practically kills everyone late game, and he doesnt even need many items.
the real dude who should be nerfed is sven honestly.
i once was playing slark, i have sny, ptread , heart , abyssal, orchid and assault.
and i stole like, idk my base damage was 2xx. the sven had only abyssal and daedalus and m0m + ptread.
we fought head on and he killed me like stepping on a lizard lol
this is maybe because slark is a lizard, the problem with sven is that, u only need 1 disable, and he can be focused to death, for example, if LD's bear entangles him in a fight, he is pretty much useless for about 3 seconds, in these 3 seconds u can pretty much rape his team mates, unless the match isnt even, and sven doesnt have an escape mechanism, or fast farming power, and he a str carry, so as the game goes on, many carries can still outfarm and outcarry him, an abyssal should be the choice, goes through magic immunity
and why is sven with an abyssal?
thats weird
probably meant for me, because i cut down others too fast :P
and my abyssal was meant for him ahaha
ofc PL wins?
Anyone in their right mind would win..
@sriosrlsdfk yan;_;, to whom r u quoting?
@Mapzor - Prolly ming, dont u think.
Super late game Sven vs PL is a very very easy win for PL...the Navi vs Mouz game I discussed earlier was exactly that. In fact Sven even had Magnus empowering him to help also...PL still easily crushed him several times. Yes sven can clear images in a maybe 3 hits, meantime PL takes 1/2 his life and 1/2 his mana as well if sven does not use bkb. Then PL sends more images in few seconds later...and takes the other half of svens life...PL took zero dmg. It so one-sided its absurd. Sven's only chance is PL being a total moron and walking up to take the cleave dmg on his main hero. The exact same thing happens with Tiny or whatever other cleave effect you want. Clearing the images means nothing, PL will just have more in a few seconds and he took no dmg...meanwhile the images will kill any late game hero no matter how tanky in the few seconds it takes to clear the images out.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/148428951
memory of a goldfish
this hero is fucking bullshit just play freecell for 40 mins and if you have 1 rax left you will win
Guys. Ever heard of GANKING carries ? or PUSHING them ? Or , in case of PL DUSTS , SENTRIES ? GEMS ? PL is a HARD CARRY. Let him farm and you will get what you deserve. Like ANY OTHER CARRY. And the game NEEDS a hero that puts the game on timer, that FORCES you to act and go fight. None hero can make that effect on the game and I am grateful to PL as he is now for that. I do not play him much though, I wish I did. Busy supporting, I guess.
Watched a team game where a PL got a five kill at 24 minutes...that team won in 34. These numbers are approximate but I thought of this thread when it happened. It seems PL can be pretty huge pretty quickly. He had Radiance, Diffusal and Heart. GG.
Of course if he has radiance, diffusal and heart (especially uncontested) he's going to rape your family in front of you and put the pictures on youtube. The guy doesn't open with it. If he had all that at 34 minutes someone really just let him farm for too long. If you let PL farm, you're gonna get hurt. That doesn't mean he's OP.
illusion based heroes are the strongest . enough said