dumb biased post is biased
'Do not rage at your support if you die. When supports die, we sigh and hope that some good came of it but when the carry dies, the red rage cyrillic flows and the entire game is "GG" or "I afk farm now" as if that isn't want you haven't been doing all game. Again, understand that we rely on peoples ability to play the game. You get kills, we get assist gold and some items and mek and such. You afk farm it helps no one but you and unless you have some awesome play up your sleeve then just assume you are an average player who needs to play along.'
dumbest shit I have read on these forums in a while, you make Soultrap look like a genius atm..........................Ive seen supports body block me so they can escape..........
Shit players can pick carries and shit players can pick support there is no reason to 'let it slide' everytime they fuck up because you think the role is 'SOOO COMPLEX AND CARRY IS HIT CREEP WIN GEAM'. Both players should be held to the same standard and if you are fucking awful with support expect to be called a awful support and vice versa.
This is the one-sided argument that we have been hearing from people since DotA began. This is the counter argument that equally as important to protecting and farming a carry is the overall performance as a team and the understanding of what goes into supporting and the issues you face.
The post isn't in the slightest biased as I know there are equally challenges on each role played, it is presenting experience from someone who knows how to support and plays it often and the issues I have personally experienced as a support. Not being a support player I wouldn't expect you to understand but this is who this is target at, dumbasses like you who don't know the first thing about supporting.
You have low winrates or no/few games played on any support. However, learning to master your second hero (drow) I wouldn't expect you to understand.
no it is a biased interpretation which is completely different from my thread in which was based around the notion that both players are equally responsible to know their roles.
you thread starts like this:
Support players die alot because our role is hard, its not our fault that we feed
-BULLSHIT invoker is a hard hero to play but you dont give him a free pass to feed.
Yea my stats suck with veno(I steal carries farm with my wards muhahahaha) but you ignore EVRY OTHER SUPPORT I PLAY
Centaur 75% 3.9 KDA
Shadow Demon 68% 3.8 KDA
KOTL 68% 3.3 KDA
Undying 69% 4.1 KDA
Rubick 71% 3.2 KDA
Yea I dont play support that often but that does not mean I am compltely clueless on how it works I just do not like to play it that often.
But whatever go back to your pity party
@ This
Carry, please back - I would rather 1 hero die than the team over extend and multiple deaths occur because a support is off position.
Get CS from pulls - If you're not getting the cs from pull through you're doing it wrong.
Yeah supporting is hard - Game is hard, problem? Go LoL.
Why'd the carry die? Was he off position or were you. Evaluate the situation, have map awareness. Ask players if they need things. If lanes are fine, see if your carry needs you, Stay within Crystal nova cast range, smokes are a thing you know. Rotate when you can, keep the lane back, and deny XP to offlaners overall.
This was blown way out of proportion. If you want kills, ks, just remember you do less with a gold advantage than your carry will. Keep obs on CD/ ask if people need rotations, TP's, Detection etc. Grab smokes when you're organized, Pull and jungle when possible, don't over extend or be out of position. Speed > Hp, and brown boots are a lot of times, "Good enough" Consider stick, not always wand, and for fuck's sake, carry a tp and keep sentries on COOL DOWN.
@Sampson
Do you have any recent support game to show us how well you did?
@Havoc Epic picture btw!
![[Lk].Zano](https://steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/steamcommunity/public/images/avatars/b9/b98e01ce6ef4a5e926a44cdd1564d0e8e5fbfa36_full.jpg "[Lk].Zano")
Too much analysis, not enough fun, get sticks out of asses, play games, have fun, rage, come back to DB and share rage.
Why people overthink so much ? I mean Havoc and Sampson you are both overthinking, every match is different.
In my case if i see someone playing support i dont even care if they feed, even only having courrier is more than 60 % of my games already.
My thread starts differently but does mention that even a good support player will die simply because supports are more susceptible to death not because they are difficult to play but the are not as durable or have early escapes like others. Invoker equally is a bad mention as even though he can be hard to play he has a myriad of skills that can help him escape, most supports have maybe 1-2 disables or stuns.
This wasn't in anyway a response to your post as I care little for your opinion but did give your posting an agreeable comment. I do agree some supports play bad but again some of them aren't playing bad it is simply your perception of what a good support does and you get mad when they don't play in the way you assume supports should be played.
On every support you play...
Centaur 75% 3.9 KDA - Not really a support and 16 games http://dotabuff.com/players/81406863/matches?hero=centaur-warrunner&lobby_type=&game_mode=&match_type=real how exactly did you support, with pipe and halberd?
Shadow Demon 68% 3.8 KDA - 16 games
KOTL 68% 3.3 KDA - 15 games
Undying 69% 4.1 KDA - 13 games
Rubick 71% 3.2 KDA - 7 games
...and this was exactly why I posted this. So people like yourself could understand what actually goes in to supporting and things that do actually make supporting (IMO) the hardest role in the game to play properly. If you understood how much of an effort goes into supporting then maybe you would be a little more understanding.
I get miffed when a hard carry complains for wards, but one escort me to ward spots, and then gets annoyed when I can't get there or die as a result of being alone.
To reinstate this isn't going into the over analysis of what happens in each individual game. Its about the mindsets a lot of players have towards supports without actually knowing what a support does.
@Melody
Of course I understand there are literally hundreds of scenarios and you are correct on allof the statements above. This is the other side of the scenario. What you posted above is stating the obvious of what supports need to do, but shit does happen and there will be times games go bad and it is literally out of your hands to do things. This is when people need to be knowledgeable that there are limitations and peeves to supporting.
Never KS, "getting kills" means getting the experience and gold that will keep you even keel with the other players in the game it's not a requirement but it makes a massive difference between being able to scale and afford items on top of keep the vision and counter warding going. Making a lane beneficial is the point I was trying to make there.
I'm sure Sampson is aware that a support will not always be able to do everything a support is supposed to do in a game, just like a carry will not always be able to get enough farm early game no matter how good his team played. But since he has a difficult time switching from Internet-asshole-speak when posting in DB to simple English, he ends up looking like, well, an Internet asshole. :D
I play 90% support only because I cant trust others to buy wards. They simply don't do it in pubs.
Oh btw help me solve a dispute with friends. Lets do a scenario, say you are shadow sharman, ES or tide etc. You have brown boots, a tango and a wand with 975 gold. You are very close to your mana boots however the wards have expired and no one else is gonna get them. Do you A) buy them straight away or B) get them after your mana boots. I am personally all for A. No item is more important then wards if you are support. NONE. They should never be on CD but all my friends chose B.
@OA | Havoc Badger
As you could see, it is hopeless to even try to point out some key arguments
It seems it is also pointless to engage in discussion with Mr. Sampson, because all he does is flex his epeen with his """knowledge""".
I have yet to see a constructive, dare i say, friendly or polite post about him.
that being said, thanks for the read, I'm always glad there are still good posts to read, I'll just truly start to ignore the shit that comes beneath it from people who cant wait to rage for no apparent reason.
@Lordy:
definitely A
@RM Lordy
Do (A) always. I never even got mana boots here http://dotabuff.com/matches/559901750 and had tranquils and stick for the longest time, then in about 10 minutes and a bunch of team fights I finally managed to grab enough gold for the mek.
If you are calculating with your spells mana boots isn't always needed and sometimes you have to grab what you can. This is a prime example of that. We were up against a hard lane and I didn't even have boots till about 8 minutes simply due to tp's and salving carries and so on. This was my point from before that starving your supports to the point that they are saving up to just buy boots is not wise. One assist kill is like 200 gold give or take and that is a stick/wards/smoke/clarities or whatever little thing you would like to go for. It makes a difference.
I'm kind of in the middle on this. I disagree with saying support is hard or harder than carry, which is why I sometimes get annoyed with the support, cus they don't do the really easy things that help win. Ward effectively, upgrade the courier at least when someone asks for it, and stay caught up in levels. Aside from supports being generally selfish and not warding past the first set cus they're farming boots or mek or force staff or whatever, a big issue seems to be not having a purpose or knowing what to do. Some will sit in lane and deny but it is very rare to get a support who harasses and denies, who is capable of zoning out the enemy. They won't position properly to get xp so by minute 30 you and the opposing carries will be 17ish and your supports will be 11 or so and get 2 shot in team fights. I think a lot of supports just don't know where to go and thus wander aimlessly, even the ones who ward well, cus they meander over to the ward spots losing out on a lot of xp instead of warding at opportune moments. I don't expect the supports to gank mid or smoke gank safe lanes but you damn well better not try and fail and waste your time walking all over the map and be underleveled all game.
I suffer from this too, in tri lane I often end up behind in xp, and a lot of times my harass fails, but at least I recognize it needs to get better.
Each role presents its own challenges and play style. Anyone can play anything but being able to support well is a rare thing these days which is a shame because Dota2 could use more supports.
@Let the Wookie win
"They won't position properly to get xp so by minute 30 you and the opposing carries will be 17ish and your supports will be 11 or so and get 2 shot in team fights."
It is the "proper" positioning. With improper positioning you and your supports will be at level 14, while opposing carries will be 17.
@Sampson
Ok, I'm here, let me take all your rage.
Well it's hard for most support players to learn to improve by playing, which is not how it should be. Instead of better players, or just more knowledgeable players, giving advice and saying "next time wait until my lane is pushed to ward so you don't lose out on exp" most of them ignore what the support is doing wrong, flame them after the fact, and then proceed to bitch and moan about it all game long.
It goes both ways, bad carries get flamed.
The general gamer asshole attitude cripples player improvement, all the while fostering more ragers bc that's all they see anyone do.
Posts like the OP are some of the few places ppl who enjoy playing supports like myself (i enjoy all roles really) can learn tips and tricks to improve. It's sad that in game is the WORST place to receive help, yet it would be the best place bc you can instantly apply any advice received.
Just my two cents.
I for one appreciate posts like the OP.
I think the thing is just recognized the game as a whole and what the problem is. To be able to criticize another player, one should know the limits of the hero in that situation. This isn't strictly a support vs carry and who should be doing what, but what the correct thing to do is.
Everything in this game is so situational, it's hard to 'make a guide', especially with so many different skill brackets. To me it's the arguments are going no where "supports feeding/supports leaving me alone/supports not ganking enough" "carries missing last hits/not participating in fights/leaving supports to die" because they are too vague. So to me, it's about being knowledgeable and knowing what your teammate should and can do.
To be honest, in pub play there isn't a player who isn't strictly support or strictly farmer, in pub, you should be knowledgeable and able to play all roles so you know how they fit together and what each is expecting. If you're a support only because you can't last hit/fight properly or carry only because you don't know how to make an early game impact/play without farm, that makes you less of a player.
I will give credit to Havoc he did edit his post a bit to change it into less of a pity party thread for horrible support players
frosty hit the nail on the head, the biggest problem with alot of support players(not all there are alot of good ones) is that they gravitate to the role because they fail playing dota. At the end of the match you see how much a carry player succeeded or failed (kills last hits gpm etc) while supports game impact are for the most part invisible to the stats screen(rune control, zoning out people etc). Nobody likes to know when they fucked up and worse nobody likes to be told they fucked up.
BUT
if you think that supports are blamed more than carries for losses you are delusional(it is equal). I will concede that core roles (1-3) get alot more credit for wins but that only comes from players who lack the game knowledge to catch a good support player
@Soultrap what I mean is our supports will also be several levels behind their supports. They are underleveled, even considering not "leeching" xp from carries.
And one more thing. You can have 50 kda and lose a game, no one will give a shit. You lost.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/560791568
did a ton of dirty work and didnt even finish with 2 kda. Anyone in my team gave a damn? No, coz we won a game.
They're all hard roles, it just seems to me that being support is harder in solo queue (or at least for my mmr)
AA bitching at me for not lifting weaver with rubick.... but it only lasts 1.75 seconds and his feet needs 4 seconds to actually stun....
and you can't slow weaver .__.
Lich bitching at me for not buying support items, though my items started as salve/tango/sentry/smoke
It's like... "bitch, really? I wanna slap you".
Killing weaver with a rubick and AA is slightly hard unless you have had preset wards in lane.
"not dying" on supports is so much overrated... yes you should avoid it, but there are many possibilities to sacrifice the support.
and i could punch every fucking carry who goes back when i sacrifice myself for him and he goes and try "to save me" or when they dont safe gold for buyback in lategame (even fucking supports save for it)
You can honestly take yourself to a higher mmr playing primarily support. I did that with 300 ping in SE Asia and it's done wonders for me. It's like entering a hyperbolic chamber (ala DBZ). I would recommend doing it and making some SE Asia friends while you're there.
Next, come back to your home server and whala
This is a great post! Thank you @ OP! If only bookmarking a thread is feasible here, i will do it.
well my take is:
- I agree with @Blackmagic with not dying on supports is overrated. You see in my profile i love Dazzle as my first hero in my transition to newer DOTA. It makes sense to have a Dazzle sacrifice himself in a clash just to cast grave on a dying Tidehunter while he hasnt casted up his Ravage yet. A thrown Ravage is more helpful than an alive Dazzle with nothing to heal for
- not all supports does not need levels (lets say comparing my Dazzle to a Rylai/CM). sometimes leeching exp is helpful when your exp bar is near full, a 15 second duration on grave is a big deal.
- this is the beauty of DOTA, lots of different scenarios. analyze the situation every game, especially when i solo queue (if that's what you call playing without a friend on a party). it helps to cope up for lack of mechanical skill (especially in my case where i'm still adjusting from DOTA 1 to 2). when you see your teammates just love to farm and not organized, smoke is not worth having imo. pulling/stacking is a bigger deal in this case. expect your teammates to have bad map awareness, so you force them to hug your tower. effective pulling works wonders than having a smoke gank in this case.
- based on my experience, most games people loves to drag the game further, farm the ites that they want. do not expect to stick with just buying wards/dust all game long. go with the flow with them. if you cant please your teammates to end the game at opportune moments, buy some items for survivability. this is not pro games. i for one loves Rod as soon as i discovered it. not a lot of people loves to make BkBs in pub games. Force staff is also good, if you have a lot of errors in positioning. always buy a TP scroll. some stuff like that.
- Last of all, there is a misconcepcion wherein supports are hard, not enjoyable compared to carries, etc. keep in mind that killing opponents is just as good as making opponents look like a fool for not killing you, then leave then with a message "is that all?". that's the power of having a support on yuor team especially with a Dazzle =D
Моля, впишете се, за да публикувате коментар.
As some of you may know I currently play support for the team OverAchievers and mostly support in public games and stacks as well and while I am not playing currently that much due to internet woes I thought it would be worth taking some time to shed some helpful light on supporting and what people currently don't understand or what to understand about the role. This is obviously not taking into account supports playing carry or just being dumb but from a perspective of someone trying to support a team whether solo or with a fellow support.
I know people won't read through a massive wall of text easily so I will try and indent and format in a way that is easy to read.
[size=+20][color=Deepskyblue]Understanding Supports from a non-support players perspective.[/color][/size]
I would like to touch base on something that is very near and dear to many of our hearts. One of the most common Dota2 trends is the blame game and sadly this falls a lot more than often onto supports. Take it from me as someone who is a very dedicated support player this peeves me loads, and things you NEED to understand what it is like to support and perhaps with understanding and patience you will see your games become a lot better and easier.
- Given the nature of supports and how the heroes are made they are very easy to kill if ganked. It's not that we enjoy dying or are not 6 slotted because "YOLO". If a support gets ganked by a mid player 3-4 levels higher and with a fellow nuker we will die unless helped. Most supports have a HP base of about 450-600 and will explode to any kind of gentle wind blown our way. No one likes dying just some of us don't really have the same advantage to help it.
[color=Deepskyblue]Counterargument for support players.[/color]
Positioning is key as well as map awareness and well placed wards. You are a prime target and moving away from your carry to go pull or gank when the mid or others are missing is ill-advised. Be prepared for on coming ganks with prewards set and do not get caught out. Alert the team that tp's might be required, clutch your rectum and wait.
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- Help me and i'll help you. Commonly when shit goes down most of the very selfish players will run and flee. Leaving your two supports behind is dumb as fuck as you possible have potential to turn it around or even just save your whole team by not just fleeing at the first sight of danger. I can run a 100 different scenarios mentally where simply going back to bail out your supports can easily turn into kills for the team or just a safe run to base. Sometimes this is not possible and I understand that.
[color=Deepskyblue]Counterargument for support players.[/color]
This is the exception rather than the rule. It is important that if ganked hard, your carry and key players get out alive. Do not expect them to go back in and neither sulk and throw because you feel you were cheated. This is where awareness and positioning help. There is only so much you can do and if your team chooses not to fight and you are caught out do what you can to get away but suggest to do/don't do the following.
Don't:
Panic ult, especially if your ult is important. Doing a 5 man ult is cool and all but if there isn't a chance for a kill and there is going to be no follow up you just wasted it.
Lead them to stacks or to your team players.
Feed the carry, try and give yourself up to a lesser priority hero if possible.
Do:
Deny yourself to creeps if available and not a stack.
Pull them out of position or through a tower forcing them to dive out into the open.
Prevent them from going further at your team by casting abilities that will see them potentially back off.
If you have a single target low CD ult try and drop one (not advised if you have an AOE ult with high CD)
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- Supports need kills, not on them but just around them. Where do you think we get our gold from? You can pull and snag a couple creeps here and there and you get gold tick but as an active support who buys smoke, tp's and wards. If I gank a lane or just setup a potential lane kill you'd better fucking go for it. This is why supporting an AM sucks fucking butt and credit to Vrok he was the only AM I have ever supported where I feel the lane worked cause he was actively looking to kill. Missing 4 creeps for a kill is of much higher value, get your priorities right.
[color=Deepskyblue]Counterargument for support players.[/color]
Do not KS your carry. His success is your priority. While getting the additional income is helpful make sure you are not forcing bad moves which end up getting you or your carry killed. Feeding your lane if your carry is not ready to go is a bad move as the lane will get fed and turn its attention on your carry if you die. Make sure there is an understanding between you and your lane partner before you try and daring moves that could in the end cost you a death and see you getting blamed, and rightly so.
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- Supporting is hard, I know as a carry player or a mid it's easy to rage and go why didn't you do A-Z but most mids/carries have farm and have had it easier than most and their focus is narrow as to objectives in the moment, supports have to think about so much more than just "hit this creep" or "land this sunstrike".
- Do not rage at your support if you die. When supports die, we sigh and hope that some good came of it but when the carry dies, the red rage cyrillic flows and the entire game is "GG" or "I afk farm now" as if that isn't want you haven't been doing all game. Again, understand that we rely on peoples ability to play the game. You get kills, we get assist gold and some items and mek and such. You afk farm it helps no one but you and unless you have some awesome play up your sleeve then just assume you are an average player who needs to play along.
Summary:
Help us help you, the more we get the more we give.
Don't just farm be proactive.
Supports have it hard cut us some slack.
We don't feed on purpose but we do die easily and get focused loads and not many supports have early game escape.
Help us place key wards so we don't die constantly trying to get a safe ward so "insert carry" can afk farm jungle.
GAME IS HARD FOR US, BE NICE!!
Will update with message to support players who don't actually support and need to take heed.