General DiscussionWhy carries are the simplest role (SEPARATE THREAD)

So why do I lose all my games if I let weaker teammates go carry?

Yes, you are partially right - supports win games, carries lose them. But decision making, farming efficacy, level of aggression - these are all things that can lose an even game just from one bad play. While anyone can farm up a carry early trust me mid-late it is alot harder for carries than for supports.

For example with tb or naga you need very good map awareness and efficiency to split push and pressure the map. One wrong tp, get caught out and its game over. Supports don't have to take those risks. On the other hand with stuff like naix you need to balance farm and aggression early. And stuff like riki is all about controlled aggression when you hit 6. Once mid game comes alot more pressure goes to the carry player.

Farming is only one small part of the equation. The carry has to take risks no other roles take in order to stay in the game, especially when behind. Just farming puts yourself at risk of being picked off - see ee for example, he loves to farm as efficiently as humanely possible, but often gets caught out as a result. It's not an easy tradeoff.

I know what you're saying.

Basically though carries have less to do and generally easier, they carry far lots more responsibility. They are one of the critical factors for mid-late game fights. However, if you strike off the responsibility and objectively see what you have to do as that role, you will realize carries have the most simple one.

Literally every other role is to complement you and help you. Supports give you the map vision and sometimes sacrifice themselves for you. Middle lane gives you space so you can do your job of farming. That offlane keeps the enemy supports busy so you aren't getting smoke ganked all the time.

You have the most important job but also the easiest.

If you bet $5 on a chess match and $50 on a match of scissors-paper-stone, would you argue that scissors-paper-stone is more complex because it is a lot more important?

That other people are helping you doesn't necessarily make it the easiest.

The difference in efficiency in even basic stuff is humongous. You can tell very easily by seeing the average gpm of a pro player, a decent player and a bad player on their best carries. This difference often makes or breaks games.

Let's not forget most carries actually have alot of impact early. Heroes like naix are expected to join early fights and rotate when needed since they can often afford to farm more dangerously, but lesser skilled players often make the wrong decisions.

Look, im not contesting that supporting isn't easy. Put it this way - do you really want a weaker player to make the most important game changing decisions, assuming he even played well enough to put himself in a situation to do so?

Case-in-point: on playdota forums there's this idiot who bought a 4.7k account as a 3.5k player. After 50 or so games he managed to hold on to his rating, but only as a low impact support player EVERY SINGLE GAME, feeding and playing like shit while flaming his teammates.

It's already been discussed 10000 times, and the truth is that it depends on the lineups. If you are a hard carry against a heavy ganker lineup, then you will FOR SURE have a harder time than the supports and it will take more skill and experience to get farm without dying. If you are a "carry" in a push strat (like safe lane Pugna getting farm for Mek), then you still have to be skilled because you need to play like a support, minus the wards and smokes. Carrying is not just right clicking creeps, there is a lot of work to it, and in some cases the support role is a walk in the park.

For every role, you just need to know what to do and when to do it.

There are always exceptions, Naix, Jugger and Weaver are examples of carries where you job isn't to farm 24/7 and are expected to help out.

But I wouldn't really consider this a counter argument, otherwise I'd say supports are 100% hardest because we have Chen. If you're speaking farm-wise, then it applies to every lane. Getting every single cent of gold is critical regardless of your roles. I feel this applies even more to other roles who get minuscule opportunities to farm (support/offlane). These roles need to farm while maintaining their other duties.

The reason why you win more games when you carry is simply as you've said, you're more skilled than them. Carries impact the game more and hence you win more because you've performed better. However, that doesn't change difficulty of the role.

The carry is the most important role in dota, I agree with that. However, difficulty wise, not so much. Better players take the role of carry because the responsibility of the game weighs on the role, but thats all.

I agree with Wink but I think thats somewhat veering off into another topic.

No matter how good you are as a sniper, if the enemy has a storm, bat and zeus, you will not be doing well.

Playing supports requires more knowledge. Playing carries requires better execution.

^

Different strokes for different folks.

But someone with neither will do less damage on support.

its probably different from player to player. i find carries, hard or semi the easier comparatively

For supports there is a very small window early in the game where you need to make a big impact. harass, zoning, ward, pull, stack, smoke, roam, secure runes...way too many things to do.

Even going into mid of late, carries might get away with mistakes since it takes 2-3 heroes to kill him whereas a support will just get killed off by one core in a few hits. not to mention carries can catch up much easier than supports if they fall behind early.

No ward/courier duties, so highest possible GPM. Not required to buy gem or sentries so, another GPM bonus. Unless playing role 3, not required to take one death for the team. So at least 2 supports are willing to die for you in your place. Sometimes not required to call miss if he is not in solo lane or look for runes cuz too busy last hitting. We all know why they are prime targets for arrows/hooks now. Also those intense games where both mid can't get runes, but junglers or top/bot won't go them them either.

If you aren't position 1 carry, but 2 or 3, it doesn't require you to stop enemy carry. So thus what happens is both position 1 carries fight each other while position 2,3 of each team go for weak supports or KS.

If you are 1,2,3 or your team can't shut down the enemy carry, your team resorts to rat dota or afk jungle farm mode. ez farm ez life.

If you aren't position 1 carry. You are not to be blamed for losing. The two supports & position 1 are to be blamed.

Carries have ez attack logic. Take sven & storm. Sven's main goal during defending or attack is to stun, turn on bkb and ult. Storms role is to basically waits for someone on his team to stun or initiates and he just goes in for the KS and zip out. He doesn't care if team dies etc... allies surviving or saving allies is an added bonus.

gee supports surely have the hardest job especially when you're playing a crystal maiden, only needing to ward, follow your team around, use frostbite, use forcestaff once in awhile, harass heroes while in lane, stack creeps, pull creeps, deny creeps.

Seriously carries have the harder role. You actually need to know how to lasthit, harass, and deny creeps properly, control creep equilibrium while getting babysat. Map awareness mid game, knowing when to farm or stick and push, mana management, goin for solo kills on lone heroes or not, item choices, making big plays. Supports just need to stop being lazy and put more effort into doing things like efficiently harassing enemy heroes, stacking camps and pulling creeps, warding etc, instead of just camping, pacing up and down behind your carry while in lane, or just waltzing about the entire freaking map during the mid game.

Supports really are easy to play. Just keep your bloody eyes open, especially when you have a forcestaff and a eul's scepter. AND SAVE YOUR BLOODY CARRY. If your carry dies late game, there's really no way for your measly supports to defend high ground, and you probably already lost the game. This can partly be the carry's fault for being out of position sometimes, but it's your duty as a support to bail his ass out.

^ "Seriously carries have the harder role. You actually need to know how to lasthit, harass, and deny creeps properly, control creep equilibrium while getting babysat. Map awareness mid game, knowing when to farm or stick and push, mana management, goin for solo kills on lone heroes or not, item choices, making big plays."

Hmm...I'm pretty sure that besides the "getting babysat" part, those are all factors one must know regardless of what role you are playing.