General DiscussionWhy is Lion's winrate so low?

Cuz people pick Lion to try to counter Ember and Timber and Lycan and most of the imba heroes but fail miserably.

Poor positioning and low cast range for impale and hex, most pubs wouldn't bother smoking frequently or learn how to ground cast impale (improves cast range).

people dont know how to play good heroes, look at io, storm, qop, etc winrates

public win rate is, 10% player who can play the hero, 20% player who random the hero, 20% player play that hero for fun, 50% player who dont know shit about the hero.

Compared to Ember's winrate, this is actually magnificent.

remember me LK?

Because according to Dotabuff people don't skill Hex until level 8, that's pretty bad.

@Kryptnyt

I did this skill build once and got flamed because its noob build.

Q > E > E > W > W > R

max hex first

I LIKE SHEEP AND PIGS.

Why not Q>W>Q>E>Q>R>Q?
A 2.5 second disable with instant cast time is not situational, and is quite the good return on one skill point... shouldn't it be the default build over at least the second level of mana drain?
I can understand when you are solo mid you might want more mana leech, but he's traditionally a support, and more disable in the lane means more kills.

Because he's a squishy support with no escape ability(or sort of) - majority of dota players can't play such heroes. Also he has low hp, low armor and low move speed.

His win rate isn't low, it's nearly 49%. He's higher than rubick, lina, lesh, bane, visage, all good supports. Win rates don't really mean that much unless they're really bad like earth spirit and brood or really good like lich.

prob. cuz most people don't maximize the stun duration on the impale or the hex. Also cuz some people go rank 3 mana drain over level 2 hex for some dumb reason. That and not ganking at 6 etc....
Skill build should be q,w,q,w,q,r... If you really need mana or you are draining them you are exposing yourself for stuns and enemy range attacks.

Biggest fail I see is hexing while ganking before stun. Lion ganks and hexs someone and NOBODY except lion get's 2-3 hits on the enemy hero. Then he stuns. Usually the ally like vs/lina doesn't wait for the maximum duration of the stun, they just follow-up stun right away. So basically 2 stuns for like 1 second or something instead of 3+ second stun duration.

In lion vs. lina games. Lion actually has to build sceptor to have a heads up on lina etc...

I'd like to believe it's because people skill up the e. It's bad. People overestimate the hell out of it. I mean how often do you see people stun, hex(early), and then just mana drain and watch the target run away? And they do this every time regardless of how much health the target has. I've watched a Lion let a guy with <20 health walk away because he was mana draining him. And it's not like I'm cherry picking bad players here, this is like 90%+ of Lions I see in pubs.

BKB = Lion can't do anything. He's also slow, low hp, low armor.
There are definitely other chars that a bkb ruins, but at least someone like lina can cast her spells just to get IAS from her passive. Lion has to stand around and wait for bkb to wear off, or run away like a little girl. His right clicks are typically slow and weak.

lion hard hero for scrubs

Played mostly as a support, while the hero makes the perfect solo mid and can carry up until late game with excellent ganks.

dont max hex first
just level 1 hex and then max q/e

Wow, when I first came here this topic was out of page one, so I didn't bother checking it up (lazyness).

@Wink and Sam

Yes to both of you, but bear in mind that those heroes you mentioned actually take skill to play decently, unlike Lion. I guess I understimated how much people can fuck up with a hero, no matter how simple it's playstyle.

@Hatsune Miku

Very clearly :)

@Let the Wookie win

Again, a list of heroes which take skill to play at an acceptable level...at least that's what I think. Lion just seems like such a fool proof hero that his below 50% winrate, despite not actually being that low, still surprises me.

@cm.artemis

True, a BKB will fuck him up, but his role should be to gank the carry so much he can't actually afford a BKB. Even if he can't do that, it's not like the whole enemy team will get one. He can still let some other disabler with a BKB-piercing skill deal with that carry and he can instead 1-shot or help someone in 1-shotting another squishy, but annoying support.

Thanks for the input guys, I really thought he was more scrub friendly than what the numbers seem to tell.

@Yan
if positioning is that crucial (I'm not disagreeing), why is cm's winrate above 50? she's even shower and squishier than lion.

he's cursed

I hardly ever mana drain heroes. I just use the drain to replenish my mana off creep waves and continue harassing with spikes. I see lion kind like I see lich, just nuke the heck out of enemy heroes in lane til they leave or die, then go gank another lane.