PA is fucking op so it's perfect for mid. 50% evasion with no items, 50% slow on 6 sec CD that can crit you for 800, and the best crit in the game. wp icefrog
I dont think you guys are understanding this, Sam Zenoth you guys can do that kind of thing because both of you have pretty good mechanics, but please dont encourage people to do that :(
I dont want to see a lvl 1 sand king at 5 minutes into the game again
btw a little offtopic, so you max Dagger and Evasion ? but isnt the CD reduction on blink strike really good ?
She does not rely so much on early lvls (compared to a puck or qop, that need early lvls for their nukes)
She has low lane presence
She has a semi gud escape
She has close 0 Chance to kill a "real" midlaner
That viper/vs mort matchup is just pure bullshit. Viper wipes the floor with mortred big times. Just dont max corrosive like its done nowadays and max your orb. See how mort cries.
That Crit and 50% evasion is not given to her on lvl 1. Arteezy can pull things like this off but on equal skill, the mortdude will lose to any decent midlaner. If you are above 1000k MMR ahead of your opponent (totaly OR on a certain Hero; aka you can be a 4.5K MMR Naix and a 3.5 K MMR SF Mid), you can shit on them.
I won a lane with BH against qop. Is BH legit mid now? Hell no!
PA is a strong mid, will get about as much farm mid as safe, faster levels, and benefits strongly from both haste and dd runes, nearly guaranteeing a kill in lane. Very difficult to harass out of lane, can farm relatively safely, a dagger into blink strike combo at level 3 does about 300 odd damage.
The point of putting her mid is to gain early levels to capitalize on the heavily buffed dagger and blur - 50% evasion at level 9 is basically doubling your EHP. Throw in a PMS, and a PA with just STR treads alone takes nearly 3k physical damage to take down.
Viper will eat shit, PA will just go 2-1-2 and render most of his harass useless while Viper can't deny due to nethertoxin not working on denies, if he plays aggressively PA just needs to dagger blink and shit on him.
There's a very good reason for maxing corrosive skin first, after going 1-1-1 on viper, and if you're going to max your most ineffective skill against PA you're just going to get shat on.
Get shat on? Dude come on. You are terribly overestimating PA's mid lane potential. %20 isn't %100, she won't ever stop Viper from farming and if the both mid laners are farming well, how the hell can you call that "getting shat on"?
my point is if a viper maxes his orb first ignoring others skills he's not going to do shit in lane against PA
just tested 1v1 with a 5k+ player. easily outfarmed him with PA. bad luck with runes, would have easily killed him if i gotten any rune. On the other hand Viper can't do the opposite. He got both runes but couldnt take advantage of it, and I outfarmed him nonetheless.
I agree with Sam#2, PA mid is not a strong mid it is a greedy mid. (similar to drow in the way that you weaken your early game a bit to upgrade your late game alot)
Try it first, very few heroes can outcs a competent PA. PA's burst early is also heavily underestimated. Meanwhile Drow has shit tits for damage and one of the worst animations in the game, she's just mid to get a faster level 6, unable to kill anything or take advantage of runes. PA mid is hardly "weakening your early game", it's meant to be played aggressively early to capitalize on maxing blur over blinkstrike.
Not out-CS'ing your enemy doesn't mean you lost mid. Her ganking is mediocre at best, her farming sucks without a Battlefury and sorry but no one gives a shit about who you beat unless you beat a well-known mid player.
heroes dont have 'bad attack animations' it just has to do with timing. I have played over a thousand games with BH that I can CS with him better than any other hero it does not mean his attack animation is the best it means that I am just use to it.(obvious not counting Jinada)
her ganking is far from mediocre, she is easily one of the best early ganking cores in the game, and her early fighting is one of the best for cores. you don't play her mid for the sake of farming, you play her like a lifestealer, get early levels and start crushing people
just watch any of rtz's fucking games from when he mained pa mid
same for your opinion sam, when you cant back it up with jack
@sampson
drow has objectively one of the worst animations, with a base front swing of 0.7 seconds (modified by attack speed) before the projectile is released. This is one of the slowest in the game, on par with clinkz.
PA dagger lvl 1 - 60 pure dmg
Viper corresive skin lvl 1 - 40 magic dmg (default resist it does 30)
LVl 2 dagger - 100, lvl 2 skin - 60 magic dmg.
So yeah the dagger does more but it's still not effective harass when you take half as much dmg back. Blur at lvl 1 is 20%, viper is still going to be able to get some dots on you and regular harass attacks. Once those fast blink strike attacks wear off viper can kite PA fairly easily. I defintely don't see this matchup in favor of PA, at best it's a draw. Maybe you catch a viper who has never seen this offguard but I doubt it.
I could see her being very effective vs some other mids with no escape and only right click harrass. Like in my match PA dominated shadowfeind, not a big surprise there. She might be good vs like a sniper if he doesn't hang back far enough with his range.
But the biggest problem is PA mid is a new thing that throws off your entire team. She's not going to be an effective ganker, she's basically just going to set mid, try to farm and shut down their mid. Thus having a really hard safe lane carry might not work. PA doesn't sync well with a lot of other safe lane carries like void, sven, lots of melee based ones. If your team wants to build around PA mid the fine, but most teams won't. It's like running shadow shaman mid, he's a decent enough mid but most teams slot you into a different role. I would not do this outside of a stack.
Plus the PA in my match went bottle which seems like a fuckin waste of gold. If the enemy goes to get a run stay and farm, get ahead there, or go harrass them with a blink strike. Why on earth you'd try to win the runes is beyond me or waste gold on bottle.
Can PA do something against Storm QoP or Puck ? she squishy squishy to nukes and those heroes love to nuke someone.
Anyway, there is a question that its pretty important, can she solo kill someone without critting at lvl (6-9) ? Because if she cant i am never but never playing her, this shit of playing a hero that needs to crit in order to do something is not for me, i cant get 2 or 3 crits in a row like rtz does.
I like rng for fun, but when i want to win a game i hate rng, the rune for me is ALWAYS on the other side
in case you havent realised my comments were all responses
some idiot mentioned maxing orb first, which is why i said that
9v1: "That viper/vs mort matchup is just pure bullshit. Viper wipes the floor with mortred big times. Just dont max corrosive like its done nowadays and max your orb. See how mort cries."
which is why i responded that vipers who max orb against PA are simply retarded and will definitely lose the lane
some idiot said it only works against players alot of rating below you
9v1: "If you are above 1000k MMR ahead of your opponent (totaly OR on a certain Hero; aka you can be a 4.5K MMR Naix and a 3.5 K MMR SF Mid), you can shit on them."
which is why i tried it out against someone around 5k+
then sam comes in all big and mighty and tells me about the fucks he dont give about who i beat
look dude i dont give a fuck about who i beat too, i was making a point to somebody, sam if you didn't bother reading dont be so rude.
I am not saying she is a bad mid but when i think about it i see a lot of weakness, like no way of pushing lane to get runes, a good amount of mid heroes can nuke her down too, if she gets ganked she cant recover like some other mid heroes can ( sf )
Still is more fun to see PA mid than morph or naga ( zzzzzzzz )
You just haven't found your rng hero. When I play PA, I get 5 or 6 crits per teamfight. When I play Axe however, I only spin 2 times even after doing a 5-man call with some creeps to boot.
I don't get why people are aaying that PA mid only works against players that are way worse than you are. RTZ just did it a bunch against the best players in the world at The Summit.
And sure, none of us are RTZ, but RTZ isn't that much better than everyone else is he?
he is leagues better then than most of the people here, as with most pros (altho some people are delusional enough to believe that the skill level is much closer than it is)
Yes he's better than us, but we don't have to play against Mushi. Playing ranked you'll likely be playing against somebody of similar skill, like he was in The Summit.
I think people are saying it's really hard to pull off period, doesn't only depend on your opponent. I just don't really see an advantage compare to other traditional mids, except maybe vs a few right clickers like shadowfiend who could you probably shut down early.
I think people are overrthinking it when really all you need to do is ask the question, what role is mid? Usually mid is supposed to be 1 of like 4 things I can think of:
1. Ganker. Mid's job is to reach some effective level and then gank side lanes. Examples: bloodseeker, qop, slark.
2. Pusher. Mid's job is to reach some level where they can drop the tower fast and then go push other lanes. Exampes: tinker, death prophet, dragon knight
3. Farmer. Mid's job is to zone out other mid and out farm them, possibly leading to gank oppertunities and pushes but mainly to establish a strong mid game presence. Examples: Viper, shadowfiend, sniper, razor.
4. Leveler. This is pretty much like a pusher but for heroes that don't really fit other roles, but they simply needs levels, usually an ult quickly. Examples: Brew, bane, lion. These guys aren't exactly pushers or gankers but become quite dangerous at level 6.
So my question is which of these roles does PA fit? Not really a ganker, can gank but other heroes are better at it. Not a pusher. Needs farm but can she reliably zone out other mids? That's probably the main argument here, I say no. I think she can reliably zone out some mids. Not a leveler. Her ult is good but doesn't completely change her playstyle like others.
So what's the point of playing her mid? Given free farm safe lane vs mid, what's better for your team? Probably free farm safe lane.
pro players are not mythical creatures, they play the exact same game as us. Saying that we dont have to play against them wrong. At about 4.5k you will start playing against pro players quite commonly.
i played it on my friends acc who sits at 4.8k mmr (i dont want to try pa mid on my main and never will) and went 24/0/3, would link the match id but he posts here and told me not to
is it op? no
why does it work? nobody expects it and u can just spam dagger and not worry about smoke ganks.
also blur fucks over wards so if you get haste or dd, you can kill any1
the thing is, you need a brain and good game sense to be able to use the dagger when you really need too.
i guess most of those shitters spam dagger on stunned target and full hp creeps since 99% of this forum is at 3k-4k mmr.
its not hard to fucking pull off its a PA with 50% evasion and a spammable dagger that crits for 50% of ur hp, all u need is a bottle and maybe some crowing. btw mid lane being a ganker hasn't been relevant since many patches ago
I've gone mid with PA several times (and I'm what most would call a "scrub") and it has worked out rediculously well. Once you get your crit at 6, harass with your level 3 dagger as often as possible. Works especially well with squishy heroes that typically go mid such as Shadow Fiend. There was a game in which I went mid as PA vs a Venomancer. Went really well but unfortunately the other lanes couldn't pull it together. At the end of the game the Venomancer said "I was afraid in lane all the time lol".
Anything is viable and having read (I actually did) all the arguments for and against it I can safely confirm what I wrote before.
"If your not above 5k do not fucking pick and play heroes that you're incapable of playing to a proficient level, stick to the basics."
I see people who I play with, and coach try all these odd things they have watched pro players do and things friends tell them are the "meta" but if you can't even land a lion stun properly then don't expect things to work out well if you go PA mid. The point being is that if even the most basic dota is still too much for you to handle then why in gods green earth are you making it worse by pick unconventional things and doing it.
ever since excalibur tinker, i've been seeing quite some tinkers lately
@Koch Correction, Tinker use has spiked since his Travels immortal was released.
LOL this is a video game, relax
Lold hard at u comparing it to lifting weights like arnold...you're clicking a mouse...pretty big difference
PA is fucking op so it's perfect for mid. 50% evasion with no items, 50% slow on 6 sec CD that can crit you for 800, and the best crit in the game. wp icefrog
http://dotabuff.com/matches/707963497 what did you say about jungle SK again?
I dont think you guys are understanding this, Sam Zenoth you guys can do that kind of thing because both of you have pretty good mechanics, but please dont encourage people to do that :(
I dont want to see a lvl 1 sand king at 5 minutes into the game again
btw a little offtopic, so you max Dagger and Evasion ? but isnt the CD reduction on blink strike really good ?
no you dont max dagger because the slow is the same on all levels, but since you're mid you get a lot of levels especially with midas
And what exactly makes pa a decent midlaner?
She is ok on ganking
She has NO USE for runes
She needs farm (so give her safelane)
She does not rely so much on early lvls (compared to a puck or qop, that need early lvls for their nukes)
She has low lane presence
She has a semi gud escape
She has close 0 Chance to kill a "real" midlaner
That viper/vs mort matchup is just pure bullshit. Viper wipes the floor with mortred big times. Just dont max corrosive like its done nowadays and max your orb. See how mort cries.
That Crit and 50% evasion is not given to her on lvl 1. Arteezy can pull things like this off but on equal skill, the mortdude will lose to any decent midlaner. If you are above 1000k MMR ahead of your opponent (totaly OR on a certain Hero; aka you can be a 4.5K MMR Naix and a 3.5 K MMR SF Mid), you can shit on them.
I won a lane with BH against qop. Is BH legit mid now? Hell no!
PA with bkb and levels is enough to teamfight
@9v1
i win lanes vs 5-6k players all the time
PA is a strong mid, will get about as much farm mid as safe, faster levels, and benefits strongly from both haste and dd runes, nearly guaranteeing a kill in lane. Very difficult to harass out of lane, can farm relatively safely, a dagger into blink strike combo at level 3 does about 300 odd damage.
The point of putting her mid is to gain early levels to capitalize on the heavily buffed dagger and blur - 50% evasion at level 9 is basically doubling your EHP. Throw in a PMS, and a PA with just STR treads alone takes nearly 3k physical damage to take down.
Viper will eat shit, PA will just go 2-1-2 and render most of his harass useless while Viper can't deny due to nethertoxin not working on denies, if he plays aggressively PA just needs to dagger blink and shit on him.
There's a very good reason for maxing corrosive skin first, after going 1-1-1 on viper, and if you're going to max your most ineffective skill against PA you're just going to get shat on.
Get shat on? Dude come on. You are terribly overestimating PA's mid lane potential. %20 isn't %100, she won't ever stop Viper from farming and if the both mid laners are farming well, how the hell can you call that "getting shat on"?
my point is if a viper maxes his orb first ignoring others skills he's not going to do shit in lane against PA
just tested 1v1 with a 5k+ player. easily outfarmed him with PA. bad luck with runes, would have easily killed him if i gotten any rune. On the other hand Viper can't do the opposite. He got both runes but couldnt take advantage of it, and I outfarmed him nonetheless.
I agree with Sam#2, PA mid is not a strong mid it is a greedy mid. (similar to drow in the way that you weaken your early game a bit to upgrade your late game alot)
Try it first, very few heroes can outcs a competent PA. PA's burst early is also heavily underestimated. Meanwhile Drow has shit tits for damage and one of the worst animations in the game, she's just mid to get a faster level 6, unable to kill anything or take advantage of runes. PA mid is hardly "weakening your early game", it's meant to be played aggressively early to capitalize on maxing blur over blinkstrike.
Not out-CS'ing your enemy doesn't mean you lost mid. Her ganking is mediocre at best, her farming sucks without a Battlefury and sorry but no one gives a shit about who you beat unless you beat a well-known mid player.
heroes dont have 'bad attack animations' it just has to do with timing. I have played over a thousand games with BH that I can CS with him better than any other hero it does not mean his attack animation is the best it means that I am just use to it.(obvious not counting Jinada)
her ganking is far from mediocre, she is easily one of the best early ganking cores in the game, and her early fighting is one of the best for cores. you don't play her mid for the sake of farming, you play her like a lifestealer, get early levels and start crushing people
just watch any of rtz's fucking games from when he mained pa mid
same for your opinion sam, when you cant back it up with jack
@sampson
drow has objectively one of the worst animations, with a base front swing of 0.7 seconds (modified by attack speed) before the projectile is released. This is one of the slowest in the game, on par with clinkz.
PA dagger lvl 1 - 60 pure dmg
Viper corresive skin lvl 1 - 40 magic dmg (default resist it does 30)
LVl 2 dagger - 100, lvl 2 skin - 60 magic dmg.
So yeah the dagger does more but it's still not effective harass when you take half as much dmg back. Blur at lvl 1 is 20%, viper is still going to be able to get some dots on you and regular harass attacks. Once those fast blink strike attacks wear off viper can kite PA fairly easily. I defintely don't see this matchup in favor of PA, at best it's a draw. Maybe you catch a viper who has never seen this offguard but I doubt it.
I could see her being very effective vs some other mids with no escape and only right click harrass. Like in my match PA dominated shadowfeind, not a big surprise there. She might be good vs like a sniper if he doesn't hang back far enough with his range.
But the biggest problem is PA mid is a new thing that throws off your entire team. She's not going to be an effective ganker, she's basically just going to set mid, try to farm and shut down their mid. Thus having a really hard safe lane carry might not work. PA doesn't sync well with a lot of other safe lane carries like void, sven, lots of melee based ones. If your team wants to build around PA mid the fine, but most teams won't. It's like running shadow shaman mid, he's a decent enough mid but most teams slot you into a different role. I would not do this outside of a stack.
Plus the PA in my match went bottle which seems like a fuckin waste of gold. If the enemy goes to get a run stay and farm, get ahead there, or go harrass them with a blink strike. Why on earth you'd try to win the runes is beyond me or waste gold on bottle.
bottle is NOT a fucking waste of gold
for fucks sake just watch any of rtz's games with pa
i would rather cut my wrists than watch stream with music like kidteezy plays
if only there was a way to turn off sound :O
but yea bottle on PA mid is pretty much required
"my point is if a viper maxes his orb first ignoring others skills he's not going to do shit in lane against PA"
Good vipers max situationally. A good viper won't max orb vs a PA.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/711695119
"for fucks sake just watch any of rtz's games with pa"
You are not rtz. I am not rtz. Whole point of this thread, pros get away with some wicked shit most pubs shouldn't try.
How do you get runes vs any mid with run grabbing abilities like storm, qop, puck. Or do you not pick PA vs them? Or do you bottle crow?
dual lane mid worked for me 2 out of 3 times ;D
Once i watched rtz stream
Never again, NEVER ( the same with EE )
Can PA do something against Storm QoP or Puck ? she squishy squishy to nukes and those heroes love to nuke someone.
Anyway, there is a question that its pretty important, can she solo kill someone without critting at lvl (6-9) ? Because if she cant i am never but never playing her, this shit of playing a hero that needs to crit in order to do something is not for me, i cant get 2 or 3 crits in a row like rtz does.
I like rng for fun, but when i want to win a game i hate rng, the rune for me is ALWAYS on the other side
@sam and some others
in case you havent realised my comments were all responses
some idiot mentioned maxing orb first, which is why i said that
9v1: "That viper/vs mort matchup is just pure bullshit. Viper wipes the floor with mortred big times. Just dont max corrosive like its done nowadays and max your orb. See how mort cries."
which is why i responded that vipers who max orb against PA are simply retarded and will definitely lose the lane
some idiot said it only works against players alot of rating below you
9v1: "If you are above 1000k MMR ahead of your opponent (totaly OR on a certain Hero; aka you can be a 4.5K MMR Naix and a 3.5 K MMR SF Mid), you can shit on them."
which is why i tried it out against someone around 5k+
then sam comes in all big and mighty and tells me about the fucks he dont give about who i beat
look dude i dont give a fuck about who i beat too, i was making a point to somebody, sam if you didn't bother reading dont be so rude.
I am not saying she is a bad mid but when i think about it i see a lot of weakness, like no way of pushing lane to get runes, a good amount of mid heroes can nuke her down too, if she gets ganked she cant recover like some other mid heroes can ( sf )
Still is more fun to see PA mid than morph or naga ( zzzzzzzz )
You just haven't found your rng hero. When I play PA, I get 5 or 6 crits per teamfight. When I play Axe however, I only spin 2 times even after doing a 5-man call with some creeps to boot.
BULLSHIT zano, i mean how can you only bash someone once with void when you attack 2 times per second ? isnt that close to imposible ? D:
Or 0 backtracks ( nah just kidding, i get a lot of backtracks when is a lion right click or some other weak hero ^^ )
0 Spins with axe, usually 2x multicast with AGHS and not more than that
The only hero i was lucky with was the pre-nerf spirit breaker, every charge was 2 bashes and after that ulti
I hate rng in this game
sampson too bad turning off sound doesn't change shitty content into good one
in my case pros are trying to do like me, sadly they fail
PA mid isn't as hard, (depend on the opponents hero).
I don't get why people are aaying that PA mid only works against players that are way worse than you are. RTZ just did it a bunch against the best players in the world at The Summit.
And sure, none of us are RTZ, but RTZ isn't that much better than everyone else is he?
he is leagues better then than most of the people here, as with most pros (altho some people are delusional enough to believe that the skill level is much closer than it is)
Yes he's better than us, but we don't have to play against Mushi. Playing ranked you'll likely be playing against somebody of similar skill, like he was in The Summit.
I think people are saying it's really hard to pull off period, doesn't only depend on your opponent. I just don't really see an advantage compare to other traditional mids, except maybe vs a few right clickers like shadowfiend who could you probably shut down early.
I think people are overrthinking it when really all you need to do is ask the question, what role is mid? Usually mid is supposed to be 1 of like 4 things I can think of:
1. Ganker. Mid's job is to reach some effective level and then gank side lanes. Examples: bloodseeker, qop, slark.
2. Pusher. Mid's job is to reach some level where they can drop the tower fast and then go push other lanes. Exampes: tinker, death prophet, dragon knight
3. Farmer. Mid's job is to zone out other mid and out farm them, possibly leading to gank oppertunities and pushes but mainly to establish a strong mid game presence. Examples: Viper, shadowfiend, sniper, razor.
4. Leveler. This is pretty much like a pusher but for heroes that don't really fit other roles, but they simply needs levels, usually an ult quickly. Examples: Brew, bane, lion. These guys aren't exactly pushers or gankers but become quite dangerous at level 6.
So my question is which of these roles does PA fit? Not really a ganker, can gank but other heroes are better at it. Not a pusher. Needs farm but can she reliably zone out other mids? That's probably the main argument here, I say no. I think she can reliably zone out some mids. Not a leveler. Her ult is good but doesn't completely change her playstyle like others.
So what's the point of playing her mid? Given free farm safe lane vs mid, what's better for your team? Probably free farm safe lane.
@Dacheat
pro players are not mythical creatures, they play the exact same game as us. Saying that we dont have to play against them wrong. At about 4.5k you will start playing against pro players quite commonly.
Just happened in my last game :(
http://dotabuff.com/matches/712522796
432 GPM on AM..
Sampson: Fair enough.
i played it on my friends acc who sits at 4.8k mmr (i dont want to try pa mid on my main and never will) and went 24/0/3, would link the match id but he posts here and told me not to
is it op? no
why does it work? nobody expects it and u can just spam dagger and not worry about smoke ganks.
also blur fucks over wards so if you get haste or dd, you can kill any1
the thing is, you need a brain and good game sense to be able to use the dagger when you really need too.
i guess most of those shitters spam dagger on stunned target and full hp creeps since 99% of this forum is at 3k-4k mmr.
its not hard to fucking pull off its a PA with 50% evasion and a spammable dagger that crits for 50% of ur hp, all u need is a bottle and maybe some crowing. btw mid lane being a ganker hasn't been relevant since many patches ago
broken hero, buy bkb win game
bottle crowing gets fucked even at 4k where some idiot in the offlane wants to use the crow to send himself tangos
I've gone mid with PA several times (and I'm what most would call a "scrub") and it has worked out rediculously well. Once you get your crit at 6, harass with your level 3 dagger as often as possible. Works especially well with squishy heroes that typically go mid such as Shadow Fiend. There was a game in which I went mid as PA vs a Venomancer. Went really well but unfortunately the other lanes couldn't pull it together. At the end of the game the Venomancer said "I was afraid in lane all the time lol".
Anything is viable and having read (I actually did) all the arguments for and against it I can safely confirm what I wrote before.
"If your not above 5k do not fucking pick and play heroes that you're incapable of playing to a proficient level, stick to the basics."
I see people who I play with, and coach try all these odd things they have watched pro players do and things friends tell them are the "meta" but if you can't even land a lion stun properly then don't expect things to work out well if you go PA mid. The point being is that if even the most basic dota is still too much for you to handle then why in gods green earth are you making it worse by pick unconventional things and doing it.
Had a fun game, PA and Invoker both mid! Typing in all chat to report the other guys.
I proceeded to stomp them as Tiny, double kill at lv 4 :)
"Just happened in my last game :(
http://dotabuff.com/matches/712522796"
Who the hell was mid on dire? Bane?
Juggernaut -.-'
Wow that's sad. I thought a PA would beat a jug mid.