projectile was the worse thing ever.... now i personaly go shift etheral dagon and miss 1st combo but with fast rearm and dagon-etheral i keep up the 40% + magic dmg .. anyway fuck
I find it relatively easy to still get Travel+SR+Bottle in 10 minutes or less. Tinker has superb rune control and wonderful spam currently. March does more damage to creeps now I believe.
Anyway, even if EB didn't make you ethereal, with proper positioning it would still have been a great insta-gib item. The problem is now because the projectile moves slow you're either forced to halve or even triple your combo speed or blink right beside the enemy; both are stupid.
> March does more damage to creeps now I believe.
no it doesnt. damage was unchanged, it now is magical instead of universal damage
that nerfs all his item builds because it makes farming across the board for tinker slower. the siege units and mud golems do make a difference especially if you're marching in such a way that you'd normally be able to farm 2 camps, if it's a mud golem it's almost halving your jungling efficiency since you aren't even stacking the camp either.
if the biggest nerf was just the eb projectile then people would just switch to sheep + dagon builds instead and have no problem.
You're right, damage is the same. The source I read was wrong.
Anyway, it still hits siege units. Mud golems have a 1/4 chance of spawning so your jungling speed isn't really halved. You jungle slightly slower if you come across them, thats all. People overrate the Ancients, early on it gives you a reliable way to obtain your Travel/Blink but then onwards you aren't actually losing huge GPM because you would have spent the time farming waves.
ANYWAY, the main reason why Tinker was such a powerful pub stomper was because he didn't need to rely on teammates at all. You would jump in from the side and instagib, rearm and instagib. You can't do that with a Hex. In a 1v1 situation you might but Tinker was all about instantly killing 2 or 3 heroes in the middle of a teamfight.
The projectile makes it near impossible to do this unless your opponents are horrendously bad because of how slow your combo would be.
So yes, EB was the biggest nerf to Tinker, not his farm speed. I just played 5 games of him, travel+bot+sr within 10 minutes on all five (new runes basically mean you can spam 24/7 march during laning phase). Sadly the available late game items never felt as strong as EB+Dagon. Currently I've settled on Shiva>Dagon>Hex as the next best alternative.
Eblade is only good now on morph.
It is distance traveled projectile? So, you wave in, eb while you are wave ( somewhere close to enemy hero ) then you adaptive. Not so hard. On the other hand, for tinker, it is totally shit.
Well I say good and about time. Dagon eblade tinker was retarded, able to kill carries with triple his farm just cus their bkb was down.
the wave speed is higher that the eblade. Also you don't really always want to get into your enemies faces, you just want to do damage from a distance. And yeah, the main power of morph was bursting one hero down quickly? Now your main damage source can just easily be dodged (by many many things, even by walking away) and you become one useless maafaka.
EB dagon was way too strong, they nerfed it the good way. (btw no projectil for eb was a bug in first place, but it wasn't as slow as now)
And sup for the ancient not a nerf, they were warded anyway.
Eb seems pretty good on luna now, i'd mb even give it more try on tb (and not only fun sunder eb build -especially since sunder cast faster-)
well they buffed the shit out of butterfly too so eblade is actually a lot worse now unless you really need to hit people while eblading another guy or when you really don't want to take the extra damage from automatically eblading yourself
and not being able to do ancients is potentially a big deal because that means that people will just ward your woods instead and then you have nowhere else to go to other than lanes
and eblade+dagon is still scary as shit
nerfs make bkb a lot stronger which is probably what many people wanted
Everybody forget that now only reciver of eb goes to ghost stadium, not both ( which was before ) and that is awesome
most people know that but the thing is what is so good about it?
usually you'd argue that the upside of the ghost change is that you can right click people while eblading another hero but when you play a hero that wants to rightclick people do you really need an eblade to begin with? (also don't take extra damage from spells but you can be rightlclicked which is really good for high armor and/or low hp heroes )
i mean in almost every fight you could probably get some use out of an eblade but the question is whether it's better than a butterfly or any other item you could get instead
on the bright side it's better with satanic now
@Ego complex, thats a seminerf to many practical uses of it actually. For example, using it to save allies from Jugger or right click carries like Void in Chrono.
@Barber, values in 6.82b are almost identical to 6.81 now...
And as Matrice said, even at 4.5k games supports regularly ward Ancients. Tinker was an unstoppable farmer because of how he farmed in the lanes. He's take big waves and small waves alike and you couldn't touch him unless you had specific heroes meant to counter him if he had blink.
eb tinker wasnt a must have pre patch anyway. many tinkers went bs first or hex bs. late game tinker w/o ancients just meant he would starve out his other cores. its so standard for radiant tinker to tp mid t1 march the wave+ stack or dire tinker bot t1/t2 throughout the post lane / mid game phase lol.
It wasn't a must have.
It was just the strongest and most versatile option. You make it sound as if your teammates can't farm those Ancient stacks instead lol. If anything, Tinker can obtain farm in dangerous areas safely while your teammates take your jungle/ancients/lanes pushed nearer to your base.
Please don't argue on this. You can ask any other 5k rated player. Even Matrice as a 6k+ player says dagon+eb was the strongest. I really don't want to entertain people who want to argue for the sake of arguing.
its strong but its not versatile. eb dagon is just pure teamfight based. by post lane to mid game i mean 10-20min and clearing those stacks is way more time consuming than tinker. most cores dont even touch ancinets that much at that time period.
moonmeander seldom goes dagon as first item, its usually bs/hex first. arteezy doesnt go eb dagon either, he goes hex (bkb) bloodstone.
eb dagon is anything but versatile
http://nadota.com/showthread.php?26529-ddz-vs-Arteezy-Whose-tinker-is-better&p=751077#post751077
You're missing the point.
Its not about the item sequence, its that Dagon+EB was CRUCIAL late game for Tinker's damage output. Tinker always remained relevant no matter how late the game went because he could hex>dagon>eb combo for a perma disable gigantic burst, EB being gone is a drop of like 50% of Tinker's late game damage output.
To give you a fair idea of how much exactly 50% is, PA's ultimate gives a 68% increase in total DPS.
edit: not gonna be a dick and fixed values
Tinker was hardly touched. You can still put a massive amount of damage and control out with the hero late and his flexibility is difficult to deal with. Also with the change to BKB (timing tied to hero) it is harder to remain in a sustained team fight with him bouncing around.
Then in lane assuming you are not completely mindless, you can still dominate 1v1 with 100% miss chance on laser and pure damage. Even if he dies you just go Machine up the jungle for a bit and you are fine.
I'm glad there is a nerf to tinker in some form but I don't think it was enough to stop the plague that we have been stricken by. Make his laser magic damage and have a 60% miss chance and I will be content, he will still be able to ridiculous late and hard to push into, he just wont have so much of a lane presence as well.
P.S on the subject of ethereal blade. It hasn't changed much, considering it was used mostly to pick off squishy supports, so stop whining. I play morph and it works just fine, it is in fairness probably only right to give those poor maidens and rubicks a second to hit euls scepter to dodge insta death.
lol sorry im not really gonna bother to write a proper response to you commodore because you're clearly clueless
at least FanofEnvy gave a proper point to argue on, his being that tinker's biggest nerf was his reduced farming speed. my argument is that even if you did manage to farm, the peak of your late game abilities is weakened because of vastly reduced burst.
Your argument is as weak as saying Templar Assassin or Enchantress were buffed.
You don't always have to go damage build you know? Imo BKB Bloodstone Hex utility build is way stronger if your team offers enough damage. Also you can now use the soul ring on Bloodstone.
I'm not saying Tinker is horrible now, I'm just saying out of all his nerfs, the most impactful one was EB projectile, something people are overlooking.
I actually dislike the Soul Ring to Bloodstone change for Tinker, you lose out on that 150 mana everytimed you rearmed. I even bought an additional Soul Ring with my Bloodstone in one of my recent games. Also you answered your own comment on how it makes Tinker dependent on his team. Previously he could go solo if his team couldn't do so, now he can't.
Regardless, I still like Tinker and am glad playing him now doesn't get people thinking 'omg cheap hero'.
eblade + dagon is still fucking strong it's just not a no brainer anymore and you might have to take higher risks by having to blink close to eblade dagon more efficiently
late game you can still blink hex and then eblade dagon
i don't see how you can argue that the nerf to not being able to damage bkbd heroes or not being able to farm ancients at all (which will affect you in every game) or not ghost forming yourself automatically with eblade is considered more impactful
when you're having an easy game tinker is still gonna destroy people and it's still hard to push into marches
you don't only stack ancients to come back into games you also do it when you're ahead
and it's pretty fucking obvious that you get another soulring after completing bloodstone unless bs is your 6th item, that doesn't mean that bloodstone is worse as an item it just has a way better buildup
Games played of Tinker: 4
KDA: 2.6
Right, you clearly have played him extensively pre and post nerf. Can you not jump in using profanities and write biased information? The projectile speed is 1100. To give you a rough idea of how slow that is, Sven's stun moves at 1000. So if you do still end up doing one of the following:
1. Blink right next to the enemy. This is only viable in 1v1 situations in which case Hex would be more versatile. Theres nothing to 'think' about, you are almost never going to blink into the middle of a teamfight as Tinker...
2. Cast from a distance and stand there for almost an entire second for your projectile to hit which basically gives the enemy hero a chance to respond as well as being really slow putting you in danger.
EB is simply not really viable on him anymore and is extremely situational now, say maybe against a Juggernaut. You're much better off with a raw Dagon 5 and getting Hex/Bloodstone.
I'm happy you've decided to join the discussion but please refrain from posting misleading information and having a shitty attitude.
Humdinger you get pretty defensive about your most played hero right?
Why open a forum post if you dont want a discussion of two halves ;)
So his biggest nerf is his farming speed cause he cant kill ancients anymore? Big deal he has an entire two jungles to play with and then 3 lanes once he has blink. I guess if you are stuck to one playstyle then you might find that a major nerf...
the biggest nerf means what affects him the most
when eblade is a shit item now and nobody gets it anymore that still doesn't mean that it is what nerfed tinker the most
tinker was viable before even when he didn't go for eblade because of his potential to farm and push out lanes rather effectively as well as stalling the game and being able to come back by stacking ancients and being really strong late game
people usually use ancientstacks to get to their next big item which is boots of travel and blink dagger
if you don't get these items in a good time you can't farm all the map safely and you can actually get fucked really hard
i'm not saying you can't get good farm anymore but there was a reason people stacked ancients every game (and if it's warded you can actually deward it )
i don't mean to insult you but i think my tinker is probably better than yours even if i don't play him for 3 years or some shit
Also Humdinger I addressed your point about e blade so maybe you should answer to it ;)
'You can still put a massive amount of damage and control out with the hero late and his flexibility is difficult to deal with.'
So i probably should define damage and control sources here (these are the obvious ones that spring out, I don't actually play the hero cause I believe in Karma) :
Damage (Dagon, shiva, aganhims)
Control (Scythe, Shiva, Euls)
So without e-blade you have the ability to use a consecutive combination of items faster than any hero and still have about the same game ruining influence on a late game team fight. The advantage for you now is you don't have to worry about 10s bkbs refreshing later into the game so your control is even easier.
Do you understand my 'clueless' point of view now? Or just going to ignore an unbiased review? :P
like you're telling me that i post misleading information and the point you're jumping on is: "you might have to take higher risks by having to blink close to eblade dagon more efficiently" and you pretend i suggest that you should just jump in the middle of 5 heroes in a teamfight
i don't know how i could phrase the point more in a way that doesn't make you jump to that conclusion any more than i already did
but then again i'm on the few people actually fucking thinking about what he's writing
"Right, you clearly have played him extensively pre and post nerf"
do you think you're hot shit on tinker because you grinded the hero for about 50 games in the last 4 months?
prior to that your winrate was like 40% on the hero or something.
@Andro, Indeed, I do actually think I know more about the hero than someone who has only played 4 games on him. Please do not try to make an argument for fun, I won't entertain anything off topic if you post again.
@Sou ka, "I've only played 4 games on Tinker and have 2.6 KDA but I'm fairly confident I'm better than someone who has 100 games on him". I actually wanted to respond appropriately but whatever man, feel free to spam I'm not gonna bother with an egoistical ignorant.
@Commodore, I have played him like 5 times in my past 100 games on this account and I'm practising Earthshaker Mid and TA on an alt currently... Anyway even Morph players have been whining about the projectile speed. I have no idea how you can not feel the difference since you've played it on morph. Its just a fairly strong nerf on that item, it makes you really slow and you can't capitalize on speedy execution. EB+Dagon 5 wasn't just used to take out supports, you'd 2 shot carries and 3 shot tanks.
Like I said in one of the earlier comments... was that EB was a big part of late game Tinker's damage output. It was still great as a 5th/6th item. Being more control based is all fine and dandy but it makes you more team reliant for the damage output. In the past you could select being control based or damage based which made you versatile, you could even start out control based and then build a late EB/Dagon as seen by some Hex/Bloodstone Tinkers. Now you're forced to remain more control oriented. Yes, it does make a huge difference losing out that burst. I really cannot be bothered to bring out all the math and examples explaining why.
because everybody with more than 100 tinker games is better than me with that hero
got it
man i'm so fucking ignorant please don't respond
as a tinker picker myself it doesnt make a big differnece, u just skip the item and go dagon hex
I think shivas+hex tinker or even hex+bloodstone tinker is perfectly fine. People got too used to playing only dagon eblade
Sorry, friendlist reserved for friends. As soon as valve implements a stalker-list, I'll add you first thing <3
Моля, впишете се, за да публикувате коментар.
was not ancient farming becoming obsolete
was not eb not making you ethereal
was not increased dagon cost
it was ethereal having a projectile. That shit moves so fucking slow I completely regret getting it. Even as a situational item its horrible because of how slow you're forced to be.