General DiscussionQuestion for High MMR Support Players

Your KDA's are pretty much TERRIBLE, i have no clue how you can win when you're feeding so much. You have pretty much 0 impact on the game and you're still wondering how your teammates are bad? I would ask myself why you're diing so much, but i already know it's because of your shitty positioning and decision making. First improve your play and watch some pro supports movement, then blame others.

A few things, I will update as I get the time between games. Look at your recent matches what do all of them have in common.

YOU DIE WAY TOO DAMN MUCH!

Look at your games and see why that was, was it items, picks, not enough lockdown for heroes?

If you have late game carries DO NOT force the team to go on errands with you pulling them away from farming and into bad fights.

Don't idle in lanes, if the safelane carry is 100% fine, stack the jungle to help him farm faster later, gank mid, TP top etc.

Pick the right support for the right game.

Pick meta supports, rotate, gank, always buy wards and make sure your carry gets the most farm. Don't last pick support as ur carry and mid will want to lat pick carrys that are best vs enemy. Try spamming earth shaker, ogre, vange, jakiro. Reason you pick first because if enemy counter pick you, it dsnt matter because they are counter picking a support.

It's not only diing, just look at his impact (Hero dmg, etc). In pretty much all games he is the worst on map. That means he is way above the rating he should be imho, no wonder he's feeding so much.

Hi,
Lich is good pick if enemy team has some melee heroes and don't has blinkers (AM, QoP, Puck).
Sand King is your next bet if enemy team has no "global" heroes that can ruin your initiation (Silencer, Spectre, Zeus).
Pick Crystal Maiden if your team has many "mana-hungry" heroes and enemy team has few or no stuns/silences.

P.S. And don't listen to above posters, they are too aggressive and can't think clearly. =)

Thank you for the input I do really appreciate it. I agree I do die too much for my liking as well. Some of it is certainly due to my positioning and decision making. Some of those deaths are also attributable to me saving my carries. I am not good enough to always save both so I tend to sacrifice myself to save my carry. I thought that would be better than losing the carry. I will work on my positioning.

I always pick my support role early if I have any indication of what the others will pick. I love playing CM but I only do if my carries need mana. I do pretty well with her early game but if they have strong carries I cannot stay alive mid to late game. Because I do try to buy as many support items and don't steal farm from my carries (unless I'm really pissed) I tend to end up with boots and euls at best so I have no escape. My last cm game I feel like I did well early on then the team as a whole stopped playing to just farm inefficiently (3 ppl jungling when lanes are pushed). We lost a couple of team fights and after that I became slark fodder.

1234 Do you have any suggestions on which particular support players I should look into. Also I would appreciate any other suggestion as to what to pick as a support such as soultrap or ynit.

I try to rotate as best as I can especially if my safe carry is doing well. I try to focus on pulling for maximum farm for the carry but I'm not that great at both pulling and stacking at the same time and watching to make sure the carry stays alive. But I will work on that also.

try ganking with smoke mid at like lvl 3, really helps a lot, Im not 1234, but right now earth shaker ogre jakiri and vange are prutty good, omni is one of those picks that u get if enemy picked carrys that dont get difuzal.

There is no particular support. It's up to you to pick the right hero against and for the right team. Someone will say "Omni is OP" and you will pick Omni every game in the hope of winning cause he's OP.

A hero is only as OP as the player controlling the mouse and keyboard.

Looking at your supports and support win rates you seem to have a serious problem with positioning, moving, hero focus etc. Pick heroes that don't require much of this but issues do arise because supports are primarily positional heroes. Being at the right place in the right time, executing to a T, because without it you will die and well....feed.

You have good attitude, but i think you are sacrificing WAY too much for some of the dumb carries. In this skill bracket (i think you are around 3.3k, am i right?) nobody really knows how to farm. So a farmed support who got a lot of kills can be as equaly if not more useful then a carry.

Idk, Soultrap looks like a descent support player, at least he's in very high bracket. So you might to check out some of the replay of his games or something, since there are not many streamers that play supports. Maybe Sheever, but i doubt you can learn something from her xD

You could watch Havoc Badger's games. He's almost 5k if not there already and has played in competitions as well.
I don't know about pro players, since I don't follow the pro scene that much.

Lich is a very good lane partner and winner. Just don't panic pick him like I've done before.
Ogre Magi and Undying are a nightmare to lane against for most solo offlaners, though they can be counter picked, so watch out for that.
Warlock is insanely good against teams with weak escape mechanisms or lack very long range disables with maxed Upheaval.

Thank you all for your input. I will try to apply it and see if I can improve. At the end of the day that's really all I want which is to get better at the game and have more fun. I always like learning new things like using Tele with Rubic to get someone stuck on the ledge at lvl 1 by Rosh and usually getting FB for my carry. Again any suggestions are appreciated. 1234 You are right i'm right at 3.3k though I've been at 3.6k and obviously below that.

^xaaxaxaxaxax
watch sheever play tide take notes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yk_l200kJvY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SIXsaWtPQI

@max
Why are you getting facebook for ur carry?

@1234
Watching my replays is bad idea. =)

True, I play only supports in ~99% of the games and I have 4,4k MMR at this moment, but I don't think I deserve it. Most of the time I'm as good as a bag of potatoes.

Much better idea is to watch some of the Purge's videos on youtube.

P.S. Max, if you want to increase you survivability, try to purchase Ghost Scepter more often. If you have it, try to get Boots of Travel. Next time something jumps on you just use Ghost and double click Boots of Travel. This way of escape has ~90% success rate. =)

hahah i meant first blood @ynit

but really what I would like is to become such a good support that I can beat better carries with a lesser carry due to my support so that's the goal. Not sure how it will work out but making people play better dota is fun.

^ nah, watch notail play shadow shamen.

It's important to pick the right support hero for your team (or just pick Ogre). Then play aggressively. Keep a tp for offlane / mid lane and read the game to see where you can get the most successful gank / countergank. Keep good vision all the game and try to make sure at least one core in your team is having a good time. The other heroes can probably catch up later.

-keep good vision up
-prevent as many unnecessary deaths as possible
-provide map awareness for your team, be the eyes for missing heroes, new items, and incoming ganks

having a set hero in mind is not really the right way to go, but it's good to have a couple in your pocket just to use if you can't think of anything better. imo lion and vs are pretty solid picks.

Lina, Lion and Ogre are my favourite heroes. They are good to gank with early and they can have massive impact in the late game.

Add AA to the list along with lich, pick heroes that have impact and will at least be able to nuke out a carry before they die.

In lower brackets doing a MLG save on your carry will mean nothing cause 9/10 he will die seconds later in some stupid way, better to get a hero with a nuking ult and take out a player so at least if you die you have evened the odds for your team.

I have also added you, and will watch some of your games to find out what you're doing.

Jussi, have you ever seen oracles edict with lina's ult? Pure damage with 50% amp :P

Why can't every match be like this http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1179359763 just a great team lots of fun and it translated in an easy win but is that too much to ask for of me... It's nice to get carried sometimes I'm not going to lie. Thanks for all the input. I'm not as comfortable with AA as I am with the other supports. I love lion and ss for their disables. I haven't gotten the Lina timing down I need to play more with her and her stun.

Because then you will get the other 5 people on dotabuff complaining. That's how matches work, sometimes you get 1 idiot, sometimes you get 4, sometimes the other team just played better whether you want to admit it or not. This is how the game goes and unless you're hellbent on winning all the time and stacking with the pure objective to win you should only be expecting a 50.50 for winning or perhaps 55-60 if you're an ace player.

I agree that nuking supports are best in high skill bracket, but AA is too hard to play.

I would suggest playing treant. With good map awareness, he can change the early game with living armor and with an aghanims you can get crazy vision of the map and good teamfight control, with is extremely good with some heroes (riki, io, mostly invis heroes so you can gank very well).

Treant can make any ally invisible. There is no need in other invisibility skills.

Havoc yes I put that spell on my teammate once against a Lina. She had just picked it up and instantly killed the guy and he was like "how can laguna do 1400 dmg??????!"

So... Lina+Oracle+Bloodseeker=oneshot any hero?

Pretty much.

Thank you for the invite Havoc

I like tree a lot but I don't play him enough to feel really comfortable with all the time. I do pick him vs Slark when I can and haven't already picked someone else. But because I do try to focus on supporting rarely do I have an ags on any support.

^ omg I focking tree all the time q w cambo op, plus tree cleaves super hard, but tiny is bad support.

Max the difference with tree though is you don't have to buy wards after you get aghs. It's a very good investment. I suggest you don't buy wards and go semi-carry until you get aghs.

courier snipe ez game

the point that dota community is full of shit

doesn't matter how good u are there is someone bad enuff to drag everyone down with him

u can't trust anyone and u have to abuse the broken things in order to stay on top

if ur main role is support and u enjoy it i recommend starting to support with hardcarries or semicarries (like windrunner lina morphling naga and so on) heroes that can scale well into lategame if given enuff time and farm

and if ur good enuff doesnt matter what hero u play any hero can work in any role against retards in pub games

same as any skill or item build works too

Everyone has good points above and you need to glean through what people have said. There are many people including Jussi, myself, qxz, soultrap etc. who only, or primarily play supports and we sit between 5.5-4.5 respectively.

One thing I have seen above all else is poor positioning and in fairness a lot of supports fall for this both due to their mistakes and to team mates not wanting to take advantage of things the supports see e.g. gank opportunities, or warding control.

Try and work on the following or take note.

> If you're solo supporting play safe, you dying isn't going to help you or the team any stay in your lane guarding the carry, stacking, pulling, securing runes till you're a suitable level to help other lanes or roam.

> Do not get pissy, as a support you rely on your carries the last thing you want is them being girlie and quitting on you. Yes it does suck if you need your carries to play good and they're not, but save your shit till the end of the game.

> If you're team isn't roaming then don't deward endlessly, they won't take advantage of good warding so place defensive wards to allow them to farm. Don't wander into dark/far areas trying to get an aggressive jungle ward if you don't have the team to take advantage of it, you will just die.

> Learn when to pick defensive vs offensive supports, what items to pick for each hero/game, how to get farm when you need it instead of idling waiting for the gold tick to give you cash.

.....supporting is hard and among the hardest roles to get right. Supports can win the game by securing the early game but can also fuck it up hard if they excessively feed without actually making an impact. When I get home later I might watch some of your games and see if something sticks out.

Read the log, you die about 10-20 seconds after placing wards. STOP. GOING. ALONE! You were winning that game till you started feeding super hard.
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1179383824/log

You went drums instead of mobility or ghost sceptre http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1179453590 why would you need drums? Was it just because it was a recommended item? Not saying drums are bad but look at their team you really needed a Euls, Ghost, Force staff, blink or anything similar to that.

I can see you also buy loads of wards and sentries in the early stages of the game. Don't hold wards if you have decent wards and are solo supporting don't burn your cash on simply buying wards because...

Stack jungle for your carry
don't initiate fight if you don't know where the other enemy heroes are
Get dagger & eul to avoid dying
Never go alone
Ward smartly, dont buy too much wards if your carry isn't making much use of them

Again thank you for your advice. Havoc the first game you mentioned we were winning big our bristle was fed. I died a few times literally running into their team because I was the one carrying sentries and dust but we won those team fights. When we went to push for racks our bristle went in I followed the reset of the team didn't. He died fast then I did then the other team had the momentum and pushed and fought as five we didn't. Shortly after that I was dying in 2-3 hits so was Jug. At the end of the game Invo said he was trolling because Bristle trolled him the last game. Go figure. But you are right I do much better when I can just stick to a carry. I need to be more mindful of that. I had a terrible play when I tried to save the last t2 and buy us some time when the carries were down and got caught out by mirana who jumped me. I don't like making excuses.

Second game Necro didn't want to play with the team. We were fighting 4 v 5 constantly while he was free farming top lane. After we were outfarmed he came to fight with the team as we had already lost 2 racks and then laughed because we were dying fairly easily. Don't get it he just didn't want to win. I never had enough gold to buy the items which I agree would have been better. I bought a bracer for some additional survival and then finished drums for team aura and some speed to try to stay alive. But basically they were about to win and died one or twice to us and that's where the gold came from to buy that. I didn't think I would actually have any and to be honest I shouldn't have had any that game. Sad part is we had a small chance to win that game even after we lost both racks because the other team was playing careless but necro still didn't want to play with the team. Sometimes I just don't get people.

Thanks for the advice if you ever have time to play a quick game let me know. It would be nice to see a higher lvl support positioning and decision making. Thanks

This is my pet peeve with wards. I buy wards and sentries go into our jungle and ward and deward. A minuted or so later the other team will come with a few players and support to deward me. So I ping it out ask for help to protect our wards and win fight because we have better positioning in our jungle. No one usually comes. So they deward and counter ward. Like two minutes inevitably later one of my carries will go to farm safe lane or jungle KNOWING that there are counterwards will get picked off and killed. Then the carry yells "We need wards" "We need wards" sometimes I just want to hit my head against the wall I don't get some people...

Don't ward in the same spot all game and ward in less obvious spots. Also if you deward them, don't place an observers there, place it somewhere else.

Should learn the warding spots...in fact join me in a dual queue game and I will support along with you and we will work on coordination, mechanics etc. and I will try explain how things are done as best as I know how.

Thank you very much. I try not to ward in the same spots and I know the "normal ones" but not all of them. And the problem I have is I can't tell how far the sentry reaches to make sure it's always out of sight when I place it. If I just get a sentry and destroy theirs they will come right back and do the same so that is not very efficient.

Deward and place one somewhere else

@YNIT just saw the tide clip that's exactly how I play him or I wait until the other team has all their bkbs activated to ravage because I'm nice like that but tide is more of an offlaner than a support so I don't play him very often any more.

when dewarding try to never place the ward there as they will always come to deward knowing you have just dewards

#neverending3kwardbattles

Do any of you have a map or is there a go to clip somewhere of ward placement spots. Something I can look into?

@Soultrap I do like Ghost scepter however I never find myself with enough gold to buy it when i really needed it and when I have the gold to buy it usually we are winning and I don't need to worry as much about surviving as much as I do about debuffing getting utility items for carries like getting Vlad's for a Meepo carry etc... But I def have to work on my tp skills. It's almost a lost cause on me to get out and tp to safety. I always have an instinct to stay behind and try to save everyone.

Maybe this will help a bit with warding. You have many many good warding lessons on youtube, go watch some if u wanna learn.

http://i.imgur.com/3Obdd3M.jpg

Can you like your channel please? Thanks