Armlet is very common on him actually, and daedalus is more for the crit rather than damage (crit has great synergy with his cleave too).
Edit: Well I thought it was more common... but only 60K purchases in a month, that's weird.
Zenoth often goes the armlet build, and also with other stat-items like heart and skadi.
http://www.dotabuff.com/players/68379658/matches?hero=sven
I think I'm going to try it. I know he goes snowballing, ganking sven, I keep trying to farm and my team doesn't give me any space.
What do you build firs though, armlet, blink or mom? And what about boots? He ends with travels in all his games but do you get treads first?
i used to play sven, and i used to get treads+drums b4 min 10 and then dagger asap.
early game kills>>armlet>>>more kills>>>bkb/crit>>cuirass or something like that.
Damn that is some farm though. Just don't see how I can do that, I constantly get harassed on melee carries and can never count on supports to zone out the offlane. I can usually have either mask or armlet by 12 mins, not both, no way. And going mask, 2 mins armlet, 2 mins blink? Someone has to be stacking jungle for you right? Or just scoring some super easy kills.
How do you start with wand, tango, salve, bassy, qb? That's almost 1200g in items.
In less stompy games he gets the blink around 17-18min, but the order of the three first items are always the same.
I think the latter items just show as starting because he got them before the 1min mark (sometimes mids show starting with stat items and bottle when rushing it).
As me and My GF are sven players I can tell you this
You go 1-3-1 and then you keep your points. get ult whenever.
Later if you are free max your cleave. Depending on whether you need warcry or not you go for stats or warcry, leave Q at 2
Itemwise boots of choice is treads
try to get early basilus for good mana supply.
Itemchoice early is either dominator or mom early.
Importnat here is that you can disassemble dominator!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You can dominate a creep, start stacking and later on disassemble it for a MoM and Armlet.
4-5 Item Blink is a must
PM me for more infos
I like saving points in laning stage with just points in q, and using them on cleave at a stage in the game where I need to clear jungle camps. There's very few games where you don't want to max out storm hammer.
The games where I generally pick sven are usually against a lot of physical damage though. Good counter to Witch Doctor/ Death Prophet based teamfighting. Sometimes you just have to max out your e before the cleave
^^And Huggernaut, who's picked in like every game.
Thanks for the dominator tip btw, forgot you could disassemble that (can't think of much else use for it though, unless you want armlet on lycan or the same mom armlet on lifestealer).
More like there are few games where maxing storm hammer does anything since having the stats for another spells far eclipses the utility of abit more magical damage when sven easily hits for over 500.
With space, blink/armlet/mom/treads lets you farm upwards of 8-900 gold per minute by one full jungle rotation + ancients/lane creeps. Throw in a couple of stacks and 1k GPM is quite easy for those couple of minutes.
Warcry should almost always be maxed over stats though, if only for the cd reduction.
Anyway heart>daedalus for hitting buildings, daedalus>heart for hitting things that move. However, the added bulk comes in very handy most of the time.
I think I should just give up on sven. I pick sven, yellow shadows sniper for top lane, I tell him don't do it, just grab a support, then he changes his pick to jug. We lane vs a solo OD. And he doesn't even spec bladefury til level 4. Bladefury + storm hammer combo is our only way of creating space up here vs OD. Probably doesn't matter cus one prison from OD and I can't cast anyway.
I have the worst teammate luck with sven more than an other hero it seems.
Wow I didn't even notice that, he maxed passive before link lol. Oracle basically dc'd too.
Next match we won, finally had a good lane support in WW but enemy team started intentionally feeding. Just can't get a normal match on sven.
Sven chat? You guys can't leave me out man. Crits is good for two reason: multiply evens huge Dmg from Cruits and base Dmg when no ult.
however, nowadays I seldom get it as I often end up not needing it. Stats boosts svens FA damage pretty a lot. If you look at Dota calculator, even any gives a pretty large dps boost compared to most damage items, plus it gives you a lot of other bonuses. My current Sven build is something like treads, satanic, sny, ac, blink/shadow blade, and BKB.(sometimes, rarely, if you notice they don't have strong Magicd disables I don't go bkb but go crit then).
This is a hard carry build that resolves around making sure that he will never die and still hit absurdly hard. The MOM+ Blink build that many like to go is actuallypretty bad for a position 1 as two slots are wasted for no fight potential, it's better for only when you're a position 2/3 semi Carry who isn't necessary focused heavily.
Yeah but your farm is shitty if you don't build mom/armlet/something for farming. Going treads, dominator then s&y? Dominator farms so slowly compared to mom/armlet.
mom blink pretty bad for a position 1?
oh god you have to be kidding me, after 1196 games of sven i would expect better....
blink is the best way of ensuring you do damage during the stun duration to burst people down and MoM+Armlet are the most cost efficient items in the game, apparently those items have "no fight potential" TIL
haha guys. both of you need to check out my month's sven win at 5.5k MMR. I know what im saying.
@Timber, dominator is the fsatest farmer among all of sven's items. Use it to stack ancients. Sven is the only hero that can clear 4-5 waves of ancient with just quelling, shield, dom and treads at lv7 or 8. I usually complete treads, dom, sny before 15min, also becoming lv 10-11 in the process.
@china name, mom blink is for a build where you're looking for a fast win. With both items, you lose 2 out of 6 slots for fight potential. Blink is of course not wrong, but going both means that you are way too brittle if enemy carry is decent, and supports are fat enough with euls and shit to run from you.
sometimes in pubs i play tiny the sven version. i get blink aghs mask bkb daedlus ac rapier blink stun and cleave the shit out everyone
@cy you need to check out my sven's winrate at 5.8k mmr, also the average GPM (735 over 80 games)
funny you would think hotd is the faster farming item with that kind of average GPM...
Dominator is not faster for farming. Stacking creeps is. If you must have a dominator to stack so be it but smart teams will stack for you and dumb teams will take your stack or let your stack get taken. Do you know how many pub games I start stacking creeps then enemy team pushes mid, their carry comes and farms my stack cus our team doesn't defend? It's very unreliable to count on stacking in pubs at my mmr.
And blink and mom increase how fast you get around the map, both great for faming.
@吳能為力, my average GPM isnt high since most games in the past are based on the mom build. I've tried both. I only started helm of dom in the last month. My average GPM for the last month is around 690, including all the games i lost. Unlike you, i play sven all the time, which states very strongly for how it works as 690 is not a low average for a carry player average stat, taking into account all the bad matches.
The average GPM of my last 10 losses is 659.... those are ONLY losses. At the speed you farm you don't seem to understand how to take advantage of Blink + MoM at all....
compare the two... i have 744 GPM on average when ending with a MoM in my inventory, an item which is often dropped when Sven gets six-slotted.
your average GPM in games where you end with a Satanic is lower; also your win rate with Satanic (90% over 50 games) inflates your GPM metric since my win rate when ending with MoM is only 79.31% over 58 games.
if you can provide any evidence to the contrary i would be happy to listen to it.
Viewing your games, which are mostly playing in normal, non-ranked mmr, I can accept your gpm and stuff. I have played 20 non-ranked matches once i took a break from ranked last month, and i won 19/20 (even tho they all said vhs as well).
I will not say your matches are inflated due to noobs, but if you can show me 100matches from now your Sven score in ranked, only then I would trust your results. I would say my words still hold their weight.
I did not say mom+ blink is bad, but my opinion clearly states that I prefer it as a position 2 build, going for dom to satanic for stronger, more lasting fight as a position 1.
I love building Helm of the Dominator first on carry Sven. It allows for stacks of ancients (which Sven can easily clear with his Cleave) and is an overall excellent item on him, as it can be kept and upgraded to a Satanic in the late game or broke down and used to make both MoM and Armlet. This allowed me to always keep up with the pace of the game.
i'm not surprised you would pull this card.
here's the people i have got matched against as sven
arrow.lance, arrow.xiangzaii
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1051819748
impreza stack, semi-competitive SEA team
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1061114218
lostmyway (on my friend list, is a 6k+ player, his teammates are all 5k+)
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1033775754
fd.lubby + a few other semi-competitive players in SEA
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1165202542
50% of the time when playing as 5-stack in unranked i know the opponents because they are 5k/6k players as well.
and obviously i am of the opinion that mom+blink is much better for a #1 pos build, which is why we are having this discussion in the first place
and on topic of you playing unranked,
there is no 19/20 wins to be found.
in fact, adjusting for unranked only, your GPM on sven is only 475
it's great if you can get it fast, say before 15-20minutes. This is because of the variable boosts you get is actually decent for Sven all game round, considering the movement speed increase and maim, while the DPS boost is better than quite a few items during GodStrength due to both attack speed increase and stats-boosted dmg.
The best part, of course, is that you get all of these benefits in one slot.
The only downside is the cost of SNY is relatively high. Should you be losing the game, you might then want to prioritise items such as BKB or blink that can possibly let your game turn the tide in case you dont get more chances to farm.
@吳能為力, I think our argument would go nowhere. Our differences are clearly a matter of preference and opinion, plus I understand how mom+blink works for farming (which I see no point for your insult). For matches, I also have faced many competitive players in ranked matches which are often filled with few hundred spectators, but the point remains that my Sven games are all in ranked. I would rather not carry on this argument, but concede that mom+blink is already the most common build for carry Sven. All I'm doing is providing an alternative manner for people to play carry Sven that emphasizes on greater slot efficiency for carry fights.
**plus, get your facts right. I may have exaggerated a little on 19/20. But the last 20 was 17/20. and the gold was not 475 GPM. YOu are not looking at my HOD builds.**
on the topic of armlet+mom, here's the objective benefits:
cost: 2400+1800 (4200)
offensive benefits (active armlet):
40 damage
25 attack speed
25 str
with GS on at level 11 this build provides 40+25+38=103 damage, and 125 attack speed and 30% movement speed with MoM active. Nothing else in the game is going to give you anything close to that for the same price. The DPS output increase alone is comparable to a divine rapier. This is ignoring the defensive benefits such as armour, armlet toggling and sustain from MoM.
As for the farming speed when compared to HoTD, i have already demonstrated my point. With a good start I can finish blink+armlet+mom in 14-15 minutes. This gives me mobility, farming ability and unparalleled damage at that stage in the game. With hotd not only are you less effective in fights, you will be farming at a similar pace if and only if none of your teammates are utilizing the jungle/ancients as well.
-edit-
your average GPM on sven in unranked is 475, there's no arguing around that. even if we adjust it for time (removing all your normal bracket games at the start, your average GPM is still 612 over 74 games.
that's hardly a very convincing proof of your build being better for farming, considering your win rate over those 74 games are very similar to mine.
with the same adjustment (i have 73 games of sven in ranked+unranked the last 12 months compared to your 74 games of sven in unranked alone), i have a much better farm statistic although our number of games played are practically identical and win rate very close.
"For matches, I also have faced many competitive players in ranked matches which are often filled with few hundred spectators, but the point remains that my Sven games are all in ranked"
the only reason i am bringing up those matches is because you are insinuating that unranked opponents are not comparable to ranked, which is obviously an erroneous judgement when you are meeting the same pool of players all the time. perhaps you have never played five-stack in unranked.
@kael, if a ranked 8 dotabufff Sven is a trash player, then probably everyone except 7 people (most of them professional players) are trash. That'd include you as well.
@china name, my point of view is fully from solo play. Based on my experience there is indeed a huge difference in ranked and normal solo play(whether that is errorneous is a separate issue). Therefore you are right in not using stack to compare. I would also heavily suggest that you do not overemphasize numbers like GPM to argue by downplaying my wins, especially to emphasize your so wonderful numbers with little amount of matches. By your numbers of you did play Sven as much as me you'd be 8k Mmr today.
i am not "overemphasizing numbers like GPM by downplaying your wins"
i am challenging your claim that "dominator is the fsatest farmer among all of sven's items"
seeing as we are of a relatively similar MMR and by comparing our unranked games in the last year (which are of a similar winrate and number of games), obviously looking at GPM would be the metric when it comes to seeing which builds farm faster. i am not "pulling GPM numbers out of nowhere" nor "overfixating on GPM alone". When comparing farming builds this is the first metric you look at. your claim is thus proven questionable by this comparison.
and obviously you are ranked 8 only in part due to the sheer volume of games you have on sven, not to take away from how your ability as a player on sven
in fact let me go back to your original statement: "This is a hard carry build that resolves around making sure that he will never die and still hit absurdly hard. The MOM+ Blink build that many like to go is actuallypretty bad for a position 1 as two slots are wasted for no fight potential, it's better for only when you're a position 2/3 semi Carry who isn't necessary focused heavily."
think for a bit how absurd it is. since blink is not part of the question (you included it in your own build), your statement is basically that MoM is a wasted slot for no fight potential (as opposed to Satanic).
let's look at the damage dealing aspect
MoM is 100% attack speed
Satanic is 25 str and a total of 20+25+25+25 damage when lvl 3 GS is activated.
"My current Sven build is something like treads, satanic, sny, ac, blink/shadow blade, and BKB."
Let's swap out the Satanic in your build for a Mask of Madness
in the damage dealing aspect, MoM wins by a clear margin.
Now there are, of course, other aspects to be made of the argument.
Cost - MoM wins easily.
Farming capacity early - MoM vs HotD? see above post
Sustain/Bulk in fights - Satanic wins, easily. However, in my opinion Sven doesnt want to take long drawn fights since he loses to bulky cores that kite him or bashing agi carries whom he doesnt burst down fast enough. This is why I strongly favour MoM over satanic since it lets you do much more burst during your stun duration.
Mobility - MoM easily
People always forget about survivability when they are calculating DPS to determine what is better.
What's better? 2000 DPS but you have 1 HP .. or 1000 DPS but you have 1000 HP?
With 3000 hp at 20 minutes, and the ability to initiate with Blink + 2 second stun, i daresay it would not be impertinent to say that the added bulk of a satanic compared to MoM is not exactly that much of a difference.
Assuming a straight man-fight, which obviously isn't always the case, but lets just assume it is one.
MoM makes you die 30% faster.
Satanic makes you essentially invulnerable for 3.5 seconds (assuming manfight/no disable)
So the 1600dps on MoM vs. 1400 dps on Satanic, but you can DPS for about 4 seconds longer with satanic.
It's really not that hard to use Satanic anyway.
Blink, stun. BKB when stun ends, and Satanic shortly after if you are being targetted.
I dunno, that's just my opinion. I don't like MoM on sven.
i used to just go armlet dagger without mom, just because when i played sven there were always some heavy magical+physical dps, so bkb wouldn't have saved me.
tl;dr An idiot thinks being in the dotabuff top players for a hero make him somewhat good tries to have a dick contest with a guy who actually tries to have a dick contest with him too even though he has nothing to prove to an autistic kid who can only play 1 hero. This ends up in some retarded thread where nobody is actually smart enough to state the obvious, builds depends on the game.
An average day on cancerous dotabuff forum.
in my opinion blink+armlet+mom is categorically the best build in 99% of the games, which is obviously why i am advocating it so strongly rather than falling back for a "build depends on game" argument
@MARLAN
nobody is going to stand and manfight a sven. typically, you have three opportunities to do damage at all
1) blink and stun one-three heroes, and hit them as hard as possible in that time (with blink + armlet + mom at level 11 you can do upwards of 1k+ physical damage easily in those 2 seconds)
2) bkb and try not to be kited while getting a few hits in
2) hopefully return a few hits while they gang up on you and kite you after your blink/bkb/shadowblade is used
in a winning fight you start by bursting down a couple of targets and chasing the rest down - satanic is far inferior an option for those fights
in a losing fight you get bursted down, and MAYBE if you survive long enough to activate BKB+satanic you can get your health back up pretty quick.
MoM makes it harder for you to be kited, Satanic doesnt - its only going to work against very specific lineups, where they need to go into melee range to hit you down and yet dont have enough disables to keep you bashed/stunned/halberded/etc while you activate your satanic
And what happens in games where you can't take direct fights? where you have to split push or backdoor buildings? MoM is going to get much more work done for you than Satanic.
"tl;dr An idiot thinks being in the dotabuff top players for a hero make him somewhat good tries to have a dick contest with a guy who actually tries to have a dick contest with him too even though he has nothing to prove to an autistic kid who can only play 1 hero. This ends up in some retarded thread where nobody is actually smart enough to state the obvious, builds depends on the game.
An average day on cancerous dotabuff forum."
-average cancerous shitpost
if you cannot appreciate that the comparison of stats are necessary when contesting claims and take everything to be a dick contest then sorry but the whole world is simply a giant dick contest
Are you mad cause I pointed out that making the same build every game is retarded? You want me to pick your side? Both of your builds have different objectives and both are good. You want to avoid this argument cause you can't consider your teamates doing something good and not forcing you to solo win.
i dont really care about what side you pick, when people are making arguments in a vacuum (i.e. x build farms faster than y build) then it is necessary to bring up data to support either claim
nobody was even arguing about the bigger picture until you came in and flung your dick around by thinking providing data = dick contest
we were trying to have a civil argument here and you decided it was a dick contest, well thats your own fucking business
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If sven's ult only doubles base dmg from stats and not plus dmg items like from daedulus, how come nearly everyone rushes daedulus on him? Would going heart be a viable alternative or getting an armlet + dominator into satanic?
I understand obviously daedulus will always be more dmg but maybe it's not as big of a gap if you invest in str items. I personally find sven to be a very squishy carry as well so can see some value in stacking some stat items.
Like would it be nuts to go s&y, bkb, heart on him? Or armlet, dominator -> satanic and stack creeps? I like mom for farming but maybe an armlet would work just as well with some lifesteal.