Relentless All that you said a bit hurts my brain, you keep talking about that 3k and 5k main difference is speed in reactions and that their brain can`t be fast enough to read information. ITS NOT FUCKING TRUE. I can understand things like is hard for 3k to look minimap and play and stuff like this or to be slow when people gank him or to miss lasthits thats mechanic and thats all fine. You have game knowlege probably better than normal 3k players but you are far from 5k knowlege trust me its not only brain information and reaction speed its alot more what you don`t know what you think you know right but actually your game sense is not that right and that is knowlege. We played 3 days ago this game http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1462677111 If you want we can go check together replay and I will tell you all the wrong stuff you are doing which you think you do well but you are actually not and all these stuff have nothing with requiring fast clics fast reactions or even watching very often a mini map. For example you was at your lane close to tower alone, weaver comes and atack you ( you have 2 opinions in my opinion first instant tp base and save your life or second running around to tower and die ) You decided yourself for second opinion. Now I ask you is that your brain couldnt manage information for 8-13 seconds to realize you can be alive if you teleport base or you just thought weaver can`t kill you at tower? Basicly what happened is that you forgot or you didn`t had idea that you can survive in that case only if you instant double clic on teleport and thats in my opinion a game knowlege and that has nothing to do with speed you had like 10 seconds to do it even if you are slow you couldve died but still tryed to tp but no you didnt even tryed you forgot or you didn`t had idea that you can do it so can you explain this to me?
Also I would like to say this is just a conversation and different opinions and I don`t have anything against you.
Problem is he is keep saying big majority of 3k players knows items,spells,heroes and stuff like that. Yes they know to buy items but they have no idea to be flexibile and when to buy this item or that item they usually just copy reccomended dota 2 shop items which are total shit and out of meta and thats fucking knowlege how is it not? They will play carry heroes as supports or semi core heroes as carrys and they will think thats alright. They will pick gyrocopter and they will go aghanim septer first item after bots becauyse they think thats right but thats simply non-knowlege that has nothing to do with reactions or brain information speed. They will not buy wards they have no idea where to put wards or when what that has to do with speed? Clic buy ward 1-2 seconds ok they are 3k. 5-10 seconds to buy and find ward its ok. than where to place it? Watch 1 youtube video and they will know basic.
Problem is 3ks don`t know basic about the game and thats the true and I will never agree with Relentless that 3ks knows basics about items/spells and heroes almost same as 5k because difference is really huge.I dont want to insult anyone but 4600- players don`t knows basics for all heroes how can 3k players knows it. It needs alot of time spend in this game to know all these stuff and thats knowlege.
For example I don`t play some heroes at all like meepo,Invoker but still I have knowlege about that heroes I know what items are good for them and what are they usually buying and what is playstyle of that heroes and that is knowlege. Clasic 3k player probably never played some of these heroes for example and he has no idea how they need to be played. Ok. he knows their spells but he don`t knows right playstyle and thats knowlege. This is just a example for heroes but for 100+ heroes 3k can`t know any hero and I know as a 5k and thats knowlege if I didn`t know that stuff I won`t be 5k bcz i won`t be able to expect right things into a game and that has nothing to do with brain informations and speed. At 5k still happens that people are not used to all heroes still and sometimes they random or pick a hero they didn`t played 11 months and than they play like 3k and thats non-knowlege and thats basic problem of 3k. They probably by average didn`t tryed and didn`t have idea of how to play like 30 or 40% of all of the heroes and 5k it comes to 3-4% and at 6k maybe to 1% or even less. If you played all heroes in a right way multiple times chances that you ll react vs that heroes better are higher.
Bogi IIRC, you were one of the most inflexible players I'd met. You always built the same shit on the same heroes... maybe you've learned now but that was when you were 4.5k? IDK what you are now.
Guiri For some heroes almost same build always is good. For example Axe/Brood/Slark
I would never change items for slark like going blink dagger instead of Silver edge in pubs, well ok. maybe in some cm matches but in pubs not. There are variations of bkb or not bkb mkb or basher and stuff ofc or ac vs skadi but silver edge is like always a must.
Well dunno what I said but it doesn`t matter is like that almost always for slark for other heroes is usually not. But for example clockwerk you ll always get blademail after boots right? Or anti mage battlefury. I m talking about core items of course for any hero 2-3-4 items are situational
i skipped bf as am several times, vlad can substitute it if it fits better (=game is hard)
i dont see clocks always getting bm after boots, i saw force staff quite often, pipe and aghs sometimes
i didnt see a lot of 6k+ slark players in my games so it can be not representative, but literally all of the ones I faced were buying blink instead of sb
f.e. hypothetical situation:
you somehow get tinker and am in one team at a time, you lose ur lane as am and cant approach creeps while tinker is doing fine and is about to snowball and win game. so instead of taking his farm you just use the few coins u have to get vlads and go jungle.
you need to be flexible to win every game of yours and shouldnt blindly follow stereotypes. Enchantress can be offlaner, bm is not prohibited to build on sf, etc. However, in order not to do complete bullshit, you should intuitively understand how everything works; it comes along with experience.
I personally think it's wrong to generalize that ALL 3k players have the same kind of in game knowledge that a 5k player would have, but it's also wrong to assume that some 3k players do not possess the kind of in game knowledge that a 5k player would have.
Obviously 5k players would general know how to optimize their farm and plays, and these may be things that 3k players already know, but the difference would probably be that these are only things the know and can tell in hindsight and not while actually playing the game.
Aside from comparing physical attributes, you can probably compare this more to the professional sports scene. Coaches are not always really star players. In fact, they probably never were able to attain the skill or have the talent that star players have, but coaches are people that have enough knowledge of the sport and how to train and motivate different players to become star players.
^
Back in Dota 1 I had a friend who was a mechanics god. He understood every obscure interaction, could explain the code behind them etc. But he refused to play with hotkeys. In today's terms he would be a 3k player with 5k knowledge (probably). Despite his knowledge most of our stack played better than him simply because he casted spells so fucking slowly.
My take on the topic - I don't doubt that there exist 3k players with better knowledge than 5k players. But on average, they will have far inferior knowledge, from what I have experienced interacting with others.
what's with self entitled circlejerking shitlord stackers with their pathetic 4-7k mmr who think they are all hotshit parading their shit builds to the world pretending they are all pro players when pro players are in fact the biggest shitlords of them all?
maybe we have the knowledge needed to get to 5k
but the main problem is that we have no fucking idea how to use it, that's why we're 3k
e: on the other hand when i was watching some 5k+ games or thanks to some magic got to around 4.5k when stacked it felt like i'm in a different universe and had no clue what to do (but i guess that my usual anxiety has something to do with that too)
I think some 3k have decent knowledge of the game the problem they run across is that they literally dont think about situational items. So they will never go like diffusal vs omni etc also they have less inferior farming ability and farming patterns. They dont know when they should take advantage of their opponents mistakes. Also from what Snuffles told me "any 4k can become 5k by pure efficiency"
Relentless All that you said a bit hurts my brain, you keep talking about that 3k and 5k main difference is speed in reactions and that their brain can`t be fast enough to read information. ITS NOT FUCKING TRUE. I can understand things like is hard for 3k to look minimap and play and stuff like this or to be slow when people gank him or to miss lasthits thats mechanic and thats all fine. You have game knowlege probably better than normal 3k players but you are far from 5k knowlege trust me its not only brain information and reaction speed its alot more what you don`t know what you think you know right but actually your game sense is not that right and that is knowlege. We played 3 days ago this game http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1462677111 If you want we can go check together replay and I will tell you all the wrong stuff you are doing which you think you do well but you are actually not and all these stuff have nothing with requiring fast clics fast reactions or even watching very often a mini map. For example you was at your lane close to tower alone, weaver comes and atack you ( you have 2 opinions in my opinion first instant tp base and save your life or second running around to tower and die ) You decided yourself for second opinion. Now I ask you is that your brain couldnt manage information for 8-13 seconds to realize you can be alive if you teleport base or you just thought weaver can`t kill you at tower? Basicly what happened is that you forgot or you didn`t had idea that you can survive in that case only if you instant double clic on teleport and thats in my opinion a game knowlege and that has nothing to do with speed you had like 10 seconds to do it even if you are slow you couldve died but still tryed to tp but no you didnt even tryed you forgot or you didn`t had idea that you can do it so can you explain this to me?
Also I would like to say this is just a conversation and different opinions and I don`t have anything against you.
I think Relentless meant to type [Knowledge =/= Execution] but he added bunch of possible variables in-between.
Problem is he is keep saying big majority of 3k players knows items,spells,heroes and stuff like that. Yes they know to buy items but they have no idea to be flexibile and when to buy this item or that item they usually just copy reccomended dota 2 shop items which are total shit and out of meta and thats fucking knowlege how is it not? They will play carry heroes as supports or semi core heroes as carrys and they will think thats alright. They will pick gyrocopter and they will go aghanim septer first item after bots becauyse they think thats right but thats simply non-knowlege that has nothing to do with reactions or brain information speed. They will not buy wards they have no idea where to put wards or when what that has to do with speed? Clic buy ward 1-2 seconds ok they are 3k. 5-10 seconds to buy and find ward its ok. than where to place it? Watch 1 youtube video and they will know basic.
Problem is 3ks don`t know basic about the game and thats the true and I will never agree with Relentless that 3ks knows basics about items/spells and heroes almost same as 5k because difference is really huge.I dont want to insult anyone but 4600- players don`t knows basics for all heroes how can 3k players knows it. It needs alot of time spend in this game to know all these stuff and thats knowlege.
For example I don`t play some heroes at all like meepo,Invoker but still I have knowlege about that heroes I know what items are good for them and what are they usually buying and what is playstyle of that heroes and that is knowlege. Clasic 3k player probably never played some of these heroes for example and he has no idea how they need to be played. Ok. he knows their spells but he don`t knows right playstyle and thats knowlege. This is just a example for heroes but for 100+ heroes 3k can`t know any hero and I know as a 5k and thats knowlege if I didn`t know that stuff I won`t be 5k bcz i won`t be able to expect right things into a game and that has nothing to do with brain informations and speed. At 5k still happens that people are not used to all heroes still and sometimes they random or pick a hero they didn`t played 11 months and than they play like 3k and thats non-knowlege and thats basic problem of 3k. They probably by average didn`t tryed and didn`t have idea of how to play like 30 or 40% of all of the heroes and 5k it comes to 3-4% and at 6k maybe to 1% or even less. If you played all heroes in a right way multiple times chances that you ll react vs that heroes better are higher.
Bogi IIRC, you were one of the most inflexible players I'd met. You always built the same shit on the same heroes... maybe you've learned now but that was when you were 4.5k? IDK what you are now.
So in my opinion expirience,informations about game = game knowlege.
Guiri For some heroes almost same build always is good. For example Axe/Brood/Slark
I would never change items for slark like going blink dagger instead of Silver edge in pubs, well ok. maybe in some cm matches but in pubs not. There are variations of bkb or not bkb mkb or basher and stuff ofc or ac vs skadi but silver edge is like always a must.
Guiri I m 5k something now
^^
highly questionable statement. imo such a strategy is suboptimal.
Well dunno what I said but it doesn`t matter is like that almost always for slark for other heroes is usually not. But for example clockwerk you ll always get blademail after boots right? Or anti mage battlefury. I m talking about core items of course for any hero 2-3-4 items are situational
i skipped bf as am several times, vlad can substitute it if it fits better (=game is hard)
i dont see clocks always getting bm after boots, i saw force staff quite often, pipe and aghs sometimes
i didnt see a lot of 6k+ slark players in my games so it can be not representative, but literally all of the ones I faced were buying blink instead of sb
skipping bfury means you cant split push or attempt to recover thru flash farm, pretty crippling imo
^its optimal in 5% of cases max. but still works in these rare games.
f.e. hypothetical situation:
you somehow get tinker and am in one team at a time, you lose ur lane as am and cant approach creeps while tinker is doing fine and is about to snowball and win game. so instead of taking his farm you just use the few coins u have to get vlads and go jungle.
you need to be flexible to win every game of yours and shouldnt blindly follow stereotypes. Enchantress can be offlaner, bm is not prohibited to build on sf, etc. However, in order not to do complete bullshit, you should intuitively understand how everything works; it comes along with experience.
I personally think it's wrong to generalize that ALL 3k players have the same kind of in game knowledge that a 5k player would have, but it's also wrong to assume that some 3k players do not possess the kind of in game knowledge that a 5k player would have.
Obviously 5k players would general know how to optimize their farm and plays, and these may be things that 3k players already know, but the difference would probably be that these are only things the know and can tell in hindsight and not while actually playing the game.
Aside from comparing physical attributes, you can probably compare this more to the professional sports scene. Coaches are not always really star players. In fact, they probably never were able to attain the skill or have the talent that star players have, but coaches are people that have enough knowledge of the sport and how to train and motivate different players to become star players.
if 3k players had the same kind of knowledge as 5k players, then relentless would be 5k and not 3k
but i'll be earnest, anyone who took relentless seriously for a minute is a bigger idiot than him
^
Back in Dota 1 I had a friend who was a mechanics god. He understood every obscure interaction, could explain the code behind them etc. But he refused to play with hotkeys. In today's terms he would be a 3k player with 5k knowledge (probably). Despite his knowledge most of our stack played better than him simply because he casted spells so fucking slowly.
My take on the topic - I don't doubt that there exist 3k players with better knowledge than 5k players. But on average, they will have far inferior knowledge, from what I have experienced interacting with others.
why did he refuse to play with hotkeys
Something about a habit of only using one hand for computers or something. It was a fucking stupid reason but he stuck to it.
the moment 4k+ 5k+ 6k+ 7k+ shitlords realize their sweet hard grinded mmr means nothing
^it actually means that they are better in dota than those ones with lower mmr, nothing more
keep dreaming shitlord
shitlord #576398qw74983
whats with this autistic 2k mmr sf spammer who thinks this forum is his personal blog
can we ban him or something?
what's with self entitled circlejerking shitlord stackers with their pathetic 4-7k mmr who think they are all hotshit parading their shit builds to the world pretending they are all pro players when pro players are in fact the biggest shitlords of them all?
this world is my personal blog, can you relocate to mars or something?
ur so insecure about ur dota skill its actually painful
why dont u 1v1 me mid sf? i only have 16 games and 40% winrate so you should be able to beat my ass, right? especially since mmr means nothing
^
I'd throw some hats at the winner.
maybe we have the knowledge needed to get to 5k
but the main problem is that we have no fucking idea how to use it, that's why we're 3k
e: on the other hand when i was watching some 5k+ games or thanks to some magic got to around 4.5k when stacked it felt like i'm in a different universe and had no clue what to do (but i guess that my usual anxiety has something to do with that too)
hmm you were so quick to respond 20+ times before
not quite as confident as you'd have us believe?
i'm too busy random facerolling scrubs in case you guys care so much about my mmr level
rofl
move along guys, just another shitter who knows he'll get demolished by some random 16 sf game 4k
yeah im sure ur facerolling people
47% of the time HAHA
nobody cares about your pathetic 1v1 inclinations
nobody cares about your ability to read dotabuff profile
eat some cheetos before you type, make your head clear
ive played mid a total of 2 times in the last MONTH
i just want something to make you shut the fuck up
give me cheetos
^for once a kitrak post not full of shit, clap clap
i got news for u guys
5ks are the new 4ks
I think some 3k have decent knowledge of the game the problem they run across is that they literally dont think about situational items. So they will never go like diffusal vs omni etc also they have less inferior farming ability and farming patterns. They dont know when they should take advantage of their opponents mistakes. Also from what Snuffles told me "any 4k can become 5k by pure efficiency"
dota 2 shit game, uninstall plz self entitled ego blyats
@deadshot, this is true actually
CRISTIANO ROFL
what a fucking moron
If game sucks stop playing and gtfo of this forum. So fucking annoying, insecure attention hore
FUCK U YOU LITERAL PIECE OF DUMB SHIT
how many people on this forum do u think like u
if you think the number is larger than 0 u may be incorrect
as many as those who suck dick liek you do
^^ This guy... Who the fuck even are you? 2k Trashcan SF player? Get the fuck out of here lol and your English blows worse than your SF