@ normal and high skill I just pick LC into anything, but it's pretty easy to dumpster spectre whether you go blademail/tanky route or you just go ac/deso/bkb shit and pound the shit out of her. Silver edge good, especially since you should go shadowblade against spec since she'll make your blink useless with radiance. PA is paper, get mkb and silver edge and she's completely rekt every single time.
Specter is becoming problem for me . I used to wreck her with slark but I can't seem to do it any more.
invokerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
fucking badman only can lose against invoker
be careful boys Lc dude is getting closer to your mmr almost 3k you better get out of his mmr range before he gets to you
^rofl it's like I'm some fucking rapist haha, maybe I'd be flat 3k if I didn't throw some games on purpose/random and did other stupid shit
But yeah, I don't think I'd suggest LC all that much past normal/high skill, the hero kinda seems to fall off as people are less brain damaged.
@Kitrak: What exactly makes alch so good against spec? I know he's one of the top counters, but what exactly do you do, build to be tanky and hit hard early, and fuck the towers before she can farm? Lategame abyssal her and punch her really hard while you're regening etc? What kinda build would you suggest to counter spectre, the typical AC Abyssal Silver Edge or something more specific?
Spectre - Undying, Decay is really annoying for Spectre because she will be very squishy with some stack of it
PA - Enchantress maybe ? Her passive seems useful to deal with PA.
Try invoker
Emp, disarm, ministun, slow, minus armor is perfect against them+++ and always hunt them to prevent them farming their items
@Road to oblivion spectre team needs support to help Her in lane can't rotate to punish alchemy greed
Medusa late game rekt them maybe
Silver edge is best item imo so far, break mechanism just rekt their passives
For PA, Dark Seer, Omniknight, Zeus.
Spec, just outcarry with a Dusa.
^ Dark Seer seems to decent against Spec as well, as DS is great for denying farm to carries.
^lol. dusa DOES NOT outcarry a spectre by any means. 6 slotted spectre will rape the shit out of medusa in a 1v1 any day. With the nerf to void, Spectre is now officially at the top of the hard-carry spectrum.
It's better to counter spectre not with carrys, but with early and mid game heroes like undying. If you do want to talk about carrys, anti-mage is best against her - farms faster, abiltiy to engage-reengage, and split pushes like a god with BoTs. Alchemist is ok, he comes online really fast with the fighting AC-basher build.
Spectre vs Medusa;
Spectre with manta, skadi, butter, abyssal, satanic, BoT
Medusa with manta, skadi, butter, deadulus/mkb, satanic, BoT
Despite Medusa's mkb advantage, spec shud win.
Pls Lc is one and only true carry, don't play those false carry
Shadow demon soul catcher increases your teams damage a lot in a ganking situation if you want to kill her before she haunts out. If you get aghs on him you can chain break Spectres passives which is what makes her strong.
Spectre rapes medusa...and if spec goes Diffusal built with Manta, she rapes dusa even haaarder...!!!!
To be honest in my games I have seen OD ruin spectre. Spectre ulti is deleted down by each hit of OD. This allows OD to protect teammates while spectre ulti is ON.
Ill make a video on and post it on youtube about spectre vs medusa
comment the item builds for the two down here
doom + necro dual offlane vs any spectre trilane will rekt them, if you're the doom just pray for satyr in the first camp so u get the unholy aura a.k.a unbalanced aura, for 6 hp regen + the shockwave that is fucking broken this patch. Just trade efficiently untill they have not much regen and then just run them down the tier 4 xD
About PA, jugg is pretty good counter because you dont miss omnislash hits + u have good magic damage early game + she cant dagger and jump u while spining. Also jugg is a very good mkb carry as he has natural crits already.
Laning phase, just like against spectre, pick a necro + anything and u rekt any trilane.
With PA, you don't have to worry that much. Just get someone who can right click her with a Silver Edge or MKB. WK is probably pretty good, because if she pop's her BKB, you have an extra life to finish her off.
Also, blaidmail wrecks her if she doesn't go for an early BKB.
spectre and medusa arguments again? It doesn't really matter who out carries who, most likely spec goes for diffusal and manta rush then annhilates medusa in every team fight cus at that point she probably just has linkens/skadi and manta/s&y and isn't tanky enough to absorb illusions/ult + diffusal. 6 slotted I don't think spec out carries dusa but he kills her entire team so... And vice versa...
And yeah natural silver edge carries are great pa counters so go slark.
Razor is also really fucking good vs PA, drain all her dmg through bkb, kill her with ult that can't miss and goes through bkb.
Spectre is harder to direct counter, just get a bunch of lane pressure like I said. Bristle + necro, tiny + cent, CM + jug, tusk + jug, any op lane combo. Death prophet + undying is super strong.
Since the buff to silver edge (so that it's not removed by BKB) I'm really enjoying games against PA, makes the hero a big creep for 5 seconds, you just gotta pick something that can also burst her in 5 seconds.
So there are three ways to counter spectre:
1. Fuck her laning stage
Pick supports with great early game presence. Dual offlane wih tusk/undying/abaddon/sprit breaker + someone should do the trick. The problem with this however is that Spectre is THE queen of comeback gold. Push fast or she will recover rapidly.
2. Push before spectre gets farmed.
Simply drafts heroes that can do a lot before the 15-20 minute mark and finish before 30. Great heroes for this are chen, dp, lycan, LD, AM. This is usually the best strategy.
3. Focus her down with single target damage. The best choice here is without question jugger. Alchemist, Naix etc can be good but are usually easy to kite.
As for items, make sure someone gets a silver edge. However this is not the same as her being hard countered by silver edge carriers. LC and Slark for instance can only really fuck her if they are snowballing hard already. Given equal farm past spectres manta style they cannot deal with her. The silver edge is mostly just a hygiene factor - she is not as susceptible to break as for instance PA, ursa or bristleback.
the timbersaw one is good against spectre it really counters spec due to the fact that timber one crazy pure damage maniac , and razor is good against pa too since she can suck up her damage and basically razor will proc his 3rd skill on every skill of pa but the problem is the threat of critting 2-3x a row if for example razor engange with static link on pa but pa blinks in and crit 2-3x against razor , razor is dead or atleast near death status just a couple of swings will kill him. so razor is not the best counter but he is very good against pa
"As for items, make sure someone gets a silver edge. However this is not the same as her being hard countered by silver edge carriers. LC and Slark for instance can only really fuck her if they are snowballing hard already. Given equal farm past spectres manta style they cannot deal with her. The silver edge is mostly just a hygiene factor - she is not as susceptible to break as for instance PA, ursa or bristleback."
A properly built and farmed 6 slot slark or lc will fuck spectre really hard, and with equal farm, actually. Slark will steal a ton of stats because spectre is tanky and LC can lock spectre down and force her to play by LC's rules, unless you have a defensive support as a spectre, you're pretty fucked. But they'll kill her once, if spec is 7-8 slotted, you're fucked, and spectre is a better teamfight hero than both of them, so she's more likely to quickly dispose off of slark or lc's supports than slark or lc are. The dispersion change actually benefits slark a lot, because he starts taking way less damage as his armor increases a fuckton from all the essence shift he steals, and there's no way in hell spectre can manfight a skadi slark or crest deso ac silveredge pt bkb legion.
PA? Really? Early game most supports can nuke her down (Lion, Lina, Omni etc). If you want to fight her late game, troll can take her, so can spectre, morphling, sven, tiny, CK, PL etc. Basically anyone with burst damage early game kills pa. Oh and Ogre Magi wrecks her so hard, its a joke. He has 7armor level 1 and he can kill her everytime before she has a bkb, even if she gets one just wait out her bkb and nuke her.
Until PA gets abyssal that won't happen, when she blinks on you it procs that purge ability which will slow her, and you phase run away instantly so she'll get maybe one hit on you. If she has basher and gets lucky then gets lucky crits. But that's PA in a nutshell, needs a lot of luck.
Actually it might even purge her blink strike buff, skill says Applies its effect before the casted spell takes effect. So I'm not too sure, sounds like it won't. If it does though PA stands like zero chance of killing razor unless she opens with abyssal.
I disagree with road to oblivion, equally farmed spectre vs slark, spec wipes the floor. A 6 slotted spec can kill slark and a support or two easily. Spec with BoTs, Manta, MKB, Heart, Skadi, Butterfly can beat a slark with BoT, Skadi, MKB, BKB, Abyssal, Butterfly. Slark's strength is stealing stats from heroes and disengaging, regen and reengaging. Spec can also dagger away and heal and reengage. But we are talking about a 1v1 without running away and in that scenario, spec will win. Dealing with 3 illusions will be too hard for slark.
Road to oblivion
Your argument is flawed. Spectres main strenght late is being tanky AND dishing out pure damage with illusions.
I did the math in 910 nice little words, see below
I. SLARK VS SPECTRE
1. Spectre stats
Spectre with BoT, Skadi, MKB, HoT, Butterfly , Manta has the following interesting stats:
Physical EHP (with evasion): 18 664
Physical EHP (without evasion): 12 131
Attacks/sec: 1,98
Armor: 24.75
Health: 3808
Strength: 162
Agility: 176.8
Intelligence: 116.6
Damage: 199 – 203 + 96
2. Slark stats
Slark with BoT, Skadi, MKB, BKB, Abyssal, Butterfly:
Physical EHP (with evasion): 9080.91
Physical EHP (without evasion): 5902
Attacks/sec: 1,63
Armor: 17.48
Health: 2881
Strength: 129.2
Agility: 132
Intelligence: 106.6
Damage: 165 – 173 + 190
3. Analysis
Now, I dont really have the time to build a model on how it works out with slark stealing stats, neither can I do it in game due to hardware issues. The point being is that slark cannot steal stats from illusions, and he cannot burst down spectre during shadow dance+bkb duration - spectre can simply run away for the duration of it.
Then, lets talk about desolate. Lets first assume that slark steal enough stats that he gets an additional 10 armor (thats 24 auto attacks so its unlikely but lets assume it), giving him 62,25% reduction which gives EHP excluding evasion of 7631 hp. When spectre pops her manta, jukes away from pounce and slarks bkb/shadow dance and starts hitting that filthy fish she + illus dish out 195 PURE DMG - per attack. Per second, roughly 400 pure damage. Gives slarks 62,25% reduction that is a damage output equal to 125% of a divine rapier.
Add an extra haunt illusion and you have dmg output equal to 165% of a divine rapier for 6 seconds. Then factor in that slark has no aoe damage to deal with illusions, the fact that he doesnt steal stats from illus, that spectre has double his EHP. Slark simply cant win given equal farm.
II. LEGION COMMANDER VS SPECTRE
The same applies to LC. Duel doesnt save the situation, she wont be able to kill the spectre during its duration. Besides, any good spectre usually has time to pop manta if given 0,5 seconds of notice. However lets assume that LC manages to sneak up on spectre and we have the following situation.
1. ASSUMPTIONS:
LC initiates with silver edge on spectre, she has no time to pop manta
LC items - BKB, PT, Solar Crest, Deso, Silver Edge, AC
Spectre items - BoT, Skadi, MKB, HoT, Butterfly , Manta
Spectre benefits from MKB and evasion but has passives disabled + the dmg reduction from SE
Spectre has a total of 10340 EHP with all debuffs applied
LC doesnt have press the attack active
LC has 200 bonus damage, giving a total of 180+106+200=486 dmg per attack, 612 dps given 1,7 attacks/sec. MoC increases dps by an average of 16,3%, giving a grand total of 709 dps.
2. THE DUEL
After spectre reductions (42,34% armor + 35% evasion), LC dishes out a lackluster 260 damage per second. Hence, during the 5,5 duration of duel shes able to dish out 1430 dmg, which equals roughly 38% of spectres raw hp. During that time spectre deals 588 dmg to lc after all reductions, which equals about 20% of LCs raw hp.
Moment of courage during this time heals LC for a total of 261 hp, which means that the total hp loss is ~12%
3. AFTER DUEL
After that the SE debuff wears off. LC still has to remove the remaining 88% of spectres hp, but now spectres EHP has increased by ~30% to roughly 13300. Specs damage has increased (after reductions and including desolate but not dispersion dmg) to 240. She pops her manta and now does a grand total of 709 dps after reductions, (319 regular dmg converted to pure, 390 pure desolate dmg). Meanwhile the pure dps of LC has decreased to ~232 due to dispersion kicking in.
3.1 SUMMARY, after duel ends, no BKB and PtA activated
Spectre's remaining raw hp: 2378
Spectre's pure dps: 709
LC average MoC heal/sec: 42,5
Spectre pure dps after LC’s heal: 666,6
LC's remaining raw hp: 2568
LC’s pure dps: 232
Number of seconds for spectre to kill lc: ~3,85
Number of seconds for lc to kill spectre: ~1210,25
3.2.1 Summary, after duel, with BKB and PtA active
Now lets assume LC activates her 5 second BKB and press the attack (also 5 seconds) directly when the duel ends:
Spectre's remaining raw hp: 2590
Spectre's pure dps: 319 (excluding desolate dmg)
LC average MoC heal/sec: 42,5
LC PtA heal/sec: 60
Spectre pure dps after LC’s heal: 216
LC's remaining raw hp: 2568
LC’s pure dps: 329
Number of seconds for spectre to kill lc: ~11,9
Number of seconds for lc to kill spectre: ~7,8
3.2.2 Summary, after duel, after duration of BKB and PtA
When BKB + PtA ends after 5 seconds, the stats are as follows
Spectre's remaining raw hp: 923
Spectre's pure dps: 709
LC average MoC heal/sec: 42,5
Spectre pure dps after LC’s heal: 666,6
LC's remaining raw hp: 1488
LC’s pure dps: 232
Number of seconds for spectre to kill lc: ~2,23
Number of seconds for lc to kill spectre: ~4,0
4. DISCLAIMER
This does not factor in several important details that would affect the outcome (to spectres favour) such as the cast point of PtA, the dispersion damage and spectre using haunt to increase her damage output. It also assumes that LC would not waste any attacks on Manta illusions.
The raw stats are gathered from http://devilesk.com/dota2/apps/hero-calculator/ , the necessary calculations done by me.
The LC example does not include nukes of any kind.
There might be some minor errors since im tired as fuck but in general it should be correct.
III. CONCLUSION
Spectre fucks both Slark and LC given a 6-slotted situation per your example. I’m right and you are wrong my friend.
@Shinata Mariyia,
Well that was the longer (and more scientific) version of saying that yes, spectre fucks slark. And LC.
slark is good against spectre because he shines at the period when spectre is weak af, and even then, badman's way kinda deals with that
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I've been encountering a lot of PA and Spec . Almost every game i see a pa or spec as enemy if not , as an ally .
Please comment down the good natural counters to them and why should we pick them against the two.
by saying natural counter I mean heroes that counter them without the help of any item because, like Silver Edge, Silver Edge counters them both since they have low HP all you gotta do is hit them with silver edge which breaks their annoying passives and nuke them down . That's why I'm asking for the heroes that counter them naturally