vanguard is terrible on spectre, it offers nothing to his illusions and delays actually useful items.
Prefered item order: Radiance (under 20 minutes), manta, heart, bfly
situational items (buy when needed): mkb, abyssal, diffusal, linkens, bkb, satanic, vlads
Well, I used to win a lot with Vanguard. I'm pretty sure that's not the issue. Plus, Spectre illusions don't need tankability, it's even better of the enemy focuses their attention on them. You get Heart for Dispersion not hard-to-kill Haunt illusions.
Radiance is not going to be gotten under 20 minutes in solo queue.
lol if you think what you said is true, then you will never win with spectre in upper bracket. he is an illusion based hero, illusions benefit from stats, evasion, and radiance aura, she can make up to 7 illusions at the same time without refresher orb (12 illusions with refresher, which is a common item on her). if you want to actually carry your team, you have to build for it.
I gotta love players like you.
You have 50 wr on spectre, you mostly win when you stomp their enemy team.
" Okay so I used to win shitloads of matches of Spectre " > not so.
" I never had free farm really " > say what? That is reason you win stomps, and other games you fucked up.
Vanguard is most useless item for spectre. Rushing radiance is doable at 21-22 minute mark in SOLO Q ( if you can't do that , then don't play spec ) and please, don't tell me, i leach exp.
" Plus, Spectre illusions don't need tankability " no, they need dagon 5. There is huge difference in getting haunted by 7 sec haunt with radiance + heart, then 7 sec vanguard and diffusal. Your illusions can kill solo supporters in late game , during that 7 seconds haunt, due high hp, tankability and radiance ( combined with dispersion )
Edit : ye , as dorkly said, drums > vanguard in almost every situation
only 2 heroes in dota should ever build vanguard: axe and bristleback
and i only build it if i can get it under 6 minutes on them
vanguard terible on spectre?!?!?!!?!?!? Wat?!?!!
Did you know that still 90% pros going vanguard on spectre? Its fucking great item before radiance,drums is ok. but cant be compared to vanguard. After radi best way is to go manta or diffu than sell vanguuard buy hot and whatever next butterfly + refresher.
Wink, what bogi says is correct. You're talking about upper bracket bullshit when you're in 3k. You talk like you know so much and its hilarious to see. Bogi stated a truth and you says "why are you still here". You're crying about this stupid cry guy. "Whateverhisnamewas" but act like some ignorant shit
Vanguard is actually very good on spectre and many other heroes such as Slardar. Do you think people build radiance on Spectre cause its bad? Oh wait, do you think people builds vangaurd on Spectre cause its bad? ROFL. Bullshit talk, playing inhouses n thinks he's good. cmon
I am not saying that vanguard is a bad item, i really like to get vanguard on slardar bristle centaur axe and some other heroes, but i dont see how vanguard can be better than drums on spectre.
why sell vanguard and buy hot,
buy stout/ring + vitality booster and buy hot, u can save ring for refresher
because vanguard gives much more survivability than drum, and also regen to stay farming.
haunt illusions already have 400 base movement speed, so they can chase fine without drum. drum gives a measly 4 damage from the 9 agility, and 14 attack speed from the agi and aura, less HP than vanguard, and also results in more fountain trips from the lack of regen.
vanguard really isn't that bad of an item on spectre, with tranquils being nerfed ages ago people underestimate the need for health regen on heroes like PL and Spectre to allow them to be constantly farming.
i used to be convinced that drum was better than vanguard too, but both items have their merits.
rofl these idiots saying vanguard is good on spectre...
"more survivability"
okay, you have hp regen and some hp with a tiny block for 2000 gold, then what?
you can just buy a ring of health or morbid mask and farm just as effectively for less than half the cost of a vanguard.
drums gives good hp too, as well as armor, damage, attack speed, mana, and movement speed, and an aura, FOR LESS MONEY.
Also saying that illusions move fast, therefore they dont need more speed is like saying pa already crits really hard, therefore she doesnt need damage items.
@dangdang im 4k, what truth did bogi say? and where the fuck did i say radiance is bad on spectre? also i say why are you still here to him because he is a retarded troll who just QQs on this forum and serves no purpose being here.
Well you didn't get the point. Probably since my english is not super which made it hard to understand. My point was:
As Bogi said, in pro. games spectre picks up Vanguard 90% of the time. Same with Radiance. They do build radiance cause its good, obviously. Why do they build Vanguard? Cause its bad? Obviosuly not. Cause its good on this certain hero and also on other heroes such as Slardar who gets vanguard beyond 100% of his games.
You seem to be too ignorant to actually see how Vanguard is good. Could you answer me on one question.
Why do you think people usually buy Vanguard on Spectre in those pro games? eksde.
Bogi doto stats on spectre. Yeah I would change out the vanguard. 42% win rate is poop.
Vanguard<drums
Sorry point proven next question?
People also buy Blademail on Spectre in Pro games, does that mean I should rush a blademail in my games now? Not even Keepo
Drums and PMS is like the same prize as Vanguard + its actually useful. If you are getting focussed as spectre in early game fights you are screwed anyway.
Damage reduction from dispersion takes place before the block from vanguard, that's why it's good. Let's you tank a crap load more damage still dispersing it back. The problem with going vanguard though is spectre's base damage is low, if you don't go any damage items farming can be rough. Although with dispersion and desolate you should be able to farm jungle solo fairly well. But I feel like if most pubbers don't go diffusal or radiance first they simply don't farm well without those items and only having boots/vanguard.
from what ive seen, pros are building both vanguard and drums, atleast from the games ive watched recently
they go phase -> vanguard -> drums -> rad
Don't buy Vanguard. Poor Man's Shield and a Ring of Health is all you need to stay in lane.
I play Mercurial quite a lot. My thoughts on her like this:
- get QB 1st as you need to last hit (then next on list is stout)
- get fast bracer + brown boots, work towards phase (damn i miss the old days with tranquils...)
- get a ring of health or at least ring of regen before phase just to have some regen in lane
- finish drums
Now the road splits a bit. The most popular 2 builds are
A) Manta+ Diffusal
B) Radiance
I usually go for build A because I feel it's the safest. You usually get the Manta 1st as to get MS, IAS, more damage from illusions (they make use of the desolate passive) and raw HP. Then go for Diffusal (get a vitality booster in between if you think you need a little more HP), then go for heart. By now you should pretty much be able to end the game unless the enemy team has some serious carry potential (my games usually end after I get these items). If game continues, go for the all glorious butterfly and then everything else is pretty much situational (personally I like to replace drums with abysal since you got shitton of IAS and can just permabash people).
As for build B, I don't have much experience with it. I tried it several times and all I can say is, get Radiance very early (but don't skip drum/phase/ring), you should have the sacred relic no later than 25 mins !!! Usually, you can make space for yourself to farm with your ulti ganking others with your team then farming the lane you just realitied into.
There are some other weird builds I've seen but I don't really know if they are worth mentioning.
P.S.: Vanguard not so good usually since it's a dead end item (can not be disassembled). If this item could be broken back into RoH and vit booster I think it would be one of the best items in the game.
For what i see here : http://www.datdota.com/item_builds.php
Spectre in competitive games, 26 times they have build vanguard with a winrate of 50 %, average time of 15 minutes
Drums in 161 games 50 % winrate average time 13 minutes
I saw a competitive spectre game no long ago and he got vanguard
Vanguard is a tanking item and nothing more, that's why you shouldn't get it on carries. Drums, tho it does not offer the regen and block vanguard gives, is a much well rounded item since it gives comparable hp, also gives int, agi, some minor damage and IAS and the nice movement speed. Also, it has an aura, which is great !!!
Also, forgot to mention, the standard skill build is get dagger + dispersion first 2 levels then maxout desolate and get ulti as that pure damage in the early game is no joke (works wonders with those haunt ganks I was talking about in the previous post. After that, maxout dagger and leave dispersion for last since it's it usually works best with a high HP pool (after you get heart).
VG is not necessarily bad. flexible item build is good dota.
VG can make you so freaking tanky early game. If you play an afk farming spec then VG is bad choice. VG is for early game teamfights.
I usually go with
phase boots -> bracer -> veno orb -> drum -> rad (20%) or diffusal (80%) -> vita boost -> manta
besides drum, alternative to VG also includes sange and urn.
If I want to rush rad, i will probably go urn instead of drum
sange is situational, if you want some early/ mid game team fight get sange and then SnY. also get sange for heaven if against ursa/huskar/tb.
"I never had free farm really just steal exp and money" . that's your problem. you should always always always be farming.
@ Caveman.
apparently we are in the exactly same tier accoding to the DBPR lol.
@ whoji
Its ok. I think its a april fools prank ;) I think liquid tc had like 138 dbpr so its a prank for sure.
Not saying I have any crazy ideas like I'm the king of dota! :D
You guys keep saying vanguard is useless on spectre, yet Silent from Empire almost always buys it
^he is russian. We all know russians like to go balls deep.
When I play Spectre I usually just let my team handle themselves for the first 20-25 minutes (I tell them to pick a strong early game mid laner like TA or NS tho). After that I just come to fights with my ult and radiance drum phase and the fun begins :3.
Guess everyone plays certain carries differently.
Wagamama was streaming today and he played a few spectre games. There was one where even with free farm he went Treads + Vanguard before Radiance, just because you can build it into other things if you can't get Radiance.
imo Radiance on Spectre is like Midas Prophet, in that it's okay to get it later than the accepted standards for other heroes, even if you delay it (by going Drum or Vanguard on Spec, or Phase Boots on Prophet) because of how good of an item it is on them. There isn't really an comparable alternative either.
I don't agree with you about radiance being midas. Spectre is a great way to counter blink heroes like earthshaker, puck, axe, nyx and many others. Have you seen c9 vs empire? pieliedie couldnt do anything with that earthshaker because of radiance burn. I think he even ulted nothing once.
I play spectre a fair bit and to Yiran it looks like you probably moved up a bracket to where you can't get away with going a VG build as easily anymore.
Personally I just had a look at your average economy as Spectre and I think you just need to work on your farming and ability to find farm.
You have a 386 GPM and that's really not enough as a Spectre player and especially one that goes a VG because that 1st big item of yours is probably coming very slowly at around the 25-30minute mark
Nah, I generally get Vanguard at around 12min if I don't die, and 18min if I die a few times. You may be right there about my bracket, although would China's 3000 -> 3350 be that big of a difference? Possibly, not a rhetorical question.
@I like to suport
I'm pretty sure I know what's going on in my games more than you do, considering you didn't watch the replays. I basically never get free farm in pubs as Spectre. I build Vanguard and Haunt to teamfights when farming the lane and then get kills that way – basically, fighting early. I think the panic factor of seeing Haunt illusions is larger at low MMRs, but I'm not sure.
Also, I did use to win shitloads before, go look at the link my OP, seriously.
When I say big item I'm talking either Rad or Manta or Diffusal if you are struggling. VG and Drums don't count and my statement earlier is still correct. If you are getting VG at 12-18 minutes you are probably not going to be getting you first damage item until the 25-30minute.
To simplify why I think you need to work on your farming regardless of any item build talk here are some numbers
Assuming NO towers and you participate in NO battles for 18minutes (which should never happen)
You need about 50cs to farm a VG
At 5:30 enough creeps have spawned in lane to farm a VG
Of course you won't get all of them and as you said you get your VG at 18minutes if you die a few times
But at 18minutes you only need less than 3cs a minute to get that VG.
This is overly simplified obviously but if I'm seeing an enemy Spec pick up a VG at 18minutes the game is pretty much already won because it's going to be a 4v5 in our favour for a long time.
Basically, if you can't farm efficiently then Spec isn't a hero for you. Your item build is a bit inefficient and a bit dated but that probably isn't the core issue I believe
还行，有时候保，问题是你要是跟剧毒和沙王对线有个小牛保有什么用？
I'm pretty sure it's not my last hitting problem, because I last hit better than my brother and he's in a higher MMR than me (NA though so… who knows). With Spectre I can decently last hit. Heck, I deny a few creeps even with Crystal Maiden's shitty 38 starting damage. The slower speed compared to pros and getting all the cs is mainly due to inability to free farm (also partially due to last hitting problems, but not mainly).
*ESP* Wink
8 hours ago
Spectre gets vanguard in less than 10% of competitive games...
AHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA MADE MY DAY
I don't like vanguard, I really dislike the item but so many spectre players get it, it must be for a reason...
The reason you need to farm quick and get effective items with Spectre is because her strength is her teamfight but she struggles with seige and laning. I'm just going by your 386 gpm on your Spectre but if you believe your last hitting is fine that's up to you.
I see two reasons why you have been losing which interrelate. First one will be item builds, if I see a Spectre with going VG especially a late one, my team will be pushing hard because your teamfight presence which is usually your strong point will be weak and all you have to offer is a weak nuke and your illusions which will be soft hitting and will probably hit 2-3 times then disappear.
Your weak teamfight especially if you are the hard carry who needs to make a difference because of your farm leads to the second reason you are losing which is towers. Have a look at the games you are losing with spectre. Your team struggles with doing tower damage now you can blame their laning abilities or whatever. But playing as a weak seiger like Spectre means you have to win the teamfights and push off the wins. However, as stated early you are making this difficult because you aren't farming quick enough nor have the item build to make an impact
Take the criticism as you like but these are my observations
I disagree with Vanguard giving poor teamfight presence. I think Vanguard allows Spectre to be tanky early game and therefore participate in teamfights with little risk of dying. Haunt's not Spectre's only spell, and it isn't gonna be much better with Drums either.
Farming quick is pretty much impossible in solo queue though, so does that mean Spectre has no place in them? Why does she have an above average winrate for a late game carry, then?
^haunt is actually really improved by drums because each illusion benefits from the stats and auras
I think vanguard vs drums discussion is stupid they are both situational and ideally you can rush a radiance -> manta for quick farm
@esp wink and the other people saying vanguard is bad - it's not. it's actually a pretty decent item on spectre
this idea that you should only get vanguard at 6 minutes or less on spec/axe is extremely narrow-minded and conceived from the people that think that vanguard = noob item. theres plenty of heroes that benefit from it, eg doom, night stalker, slardar, seeing a trend here...?) because it gives them insane tankability through the 20 minute mark - you get a vanguard on any of those heroes and gl killing them, you'll be getting your ass dived 24/7 too.
citing competitive games means nothing as you've already shown you have a very narrowminded and weak understanding of the item (thus leading to my conclusion that you basically look at these games as law without understanding the decisions that go into item choice that pros make) - there's actually no item in dota that doesn't see pro pickups routinely (or at least warrants serious consideration situationally).
as for spectre vanguard - its what you do when you know you're going to have to fight early or want to put a lot of pressure on the enemy team. if you go vanguard you can go for pickoff after pickoff with haunt (haunt in to a target already set up on, you can dive towers whenever you feel like it and the enemy team cant do shit about it, desolate damage does the damage). saw this done recently with a puck-spectre combo, just drop coil into haunt and you can pickoff basically anyone on the map. its not your traditional spectre build however with the traditional drums (maybe) into radiance build, you're extremely susceptible to early pressure as a spec with drums vs a spec with vanguard, the spec with vanguard does a lot more with the goal i just described, however if your goal is to pursue an illusion-carry route obviously drums is better. also vanguards item buildup is better for spectre as she really lacks any ability to stay in lane being a melee hero with little harass capability/no burst/no regen. ring of regen is great for this. coupled with QB you really shouldn't be getting harassed out of lane provided ur support isnt crap.
basically it comes down to style of play, there's no "better" between drums and vanguard, just different playstyles of the hero.
^leme make it tldr version
"you guys are closed minded about items. you should get vanguard because it makes you tanky, because apparently no other item in dota gives hp or hp regen and will let you dive towers with heroes who are naturally capable of diving towers without it.
drums isnt better than vanguard regardless of price, stats, and team benefit, because retards who dont know how to swap tower aggro want to eat 700 damage in a 15 second tower dive and live, because at this tier, nobody knows how to TP support"
^
You played Spectre 1 time in 1100 matches why you complain like you understand a fucking hero when you don`t its hilarious rofl,can`t get over it that Vanguard is good and fine I still can`t believe how much some ppl in this world can be dumb xD.
Моля, впишете се, за да публикувате коментар.
Okay so I used to win shitloads of matches of Spectre. And now I'm not.
http://dotabuff.com/players/144866495/matches?hero=spectre&lobby_type=&game_mode=&match_type=real
I never had free farm really just steal exp and money with ult whilst not dying thanks to Vanguard. It worked before, why not now?
Possible reasons:
I moved higher in MMR and people don't panic upon seeing a bunch of Spectre illusions and manage to still win the teamfight.
Radiance after VG is bad? I used to do Diffusal after VG and look at that delicous winstreak.
Phase boots suck? I only used it after watching pro games. And plus I've only used them in 3 games, one of which I won so can't really comment.
Just bad luck with teammate coordination the recent games?
Any ideas?