Radiance rushing. How good is it really if they have a team that can effectively and repeatedly gank you when you're farming in lane? Here we have Spectre, a hero that statistically can't gain an advantage in even a safe lane by her own actions. The first item is the most important. A vanguard is enough to let you avoid base trips for the rest of the game, ignore lanecreep damage when you put the hits on other heroes, and increase the amount of damage output that your Dispersion will do in comparison to the amount of damage being applied to yourself. The ring of health makes it an easy build order for your gameplan, and if things start going really well for the rest of your team you can be fine holding the 1100 gold it takes to finish the item and work on something else. You can have another item much faster than Radiance so why not establish a foothold?
The day Radiance burn becomes Pure damage, we'll talk, but I don't think that rushing it will ever be core.
^leme make it tldr version
"you guys are closed minded about items. you should get vanguard because it makes you tanky, because apparently no other item in dota gives hp or hp regen and will let you dive towers with heroes who are naturally capable of diving towers without it.
drums isnt better than vanguard regardless of price, stats, and team benefit, because retards who dont know how to swap tower aggro want to eat 700 damage in a 15 second tower dive and live, because at this tier, nobody knows how to TP support"
completely misrepresents what i said. its for an entirely different style of play. if you get vanguard you are trying to play an aggressive style of play which drums simply doesn't match. drums gives your illusions more stats, but if what you are trying to accomplish is actually going balls deep engaging with the hero (plus the fact that it makes you a lot harder to kill) plus the better laning stage buildup (ring of health = lane sustainability) you are better able to a) farm your lane b) play aggressive whereas drums gives your illusions more stats and more all-around capability which is more useful for some other stuff.
price = 275 gold more, however most spectres buy a stout shield for lane regardless of build choice thus its really the same cost
stats = vanguard gives more hp see above on why thats useful + damage block + more lane sustainability which spectre has zero of and routinely gets forced back to well or to leech xp, stout shield
team benefit = yeah being able to play more aggressively and added survivability totally doesn't add anything to the team
15 second tower dive = you clearly have no understanding of what i said please re-read with an open mind
tl;dr stop basing your "claims" if i can even call them that off of things you see in the pro scene (or i don't even know what scene you get this from, "only sub-6 minute vanguards on BB/axe" is literally impossible to get unless for some reason you decide to get it without boots + get all the cs in lane or something) basically showing how little you understand about the item and its overall use, if you actually watch the pro scene maybe you can figure out how silent's spectre gameplay in those games reflects the need for vanguard over drums?
tl;dr of tl;dr
vanguard v drums:
-25 gold more (stout shield doesnt count cuz u buy anyway)
-more lane survivability/better buildup
-more aggression potential
-more overall survivability
-less stats for illusions + kinda fucks his manapool over
-less team presence (small ias/ms boost)
tell me where that analysis is wrong
care to tell me why its a bad idea for heroes like NS/slardar to get vanguard cuz you essentially said its bad on them too
No, in heroes like slardar if you dont get vanguard you actually need to play carreful in some sense, getting vanguard on slardar lets you play a LOT more agresive, plus slardar doesnt need mana or ms or damage he already does a lot of damage, drums would be a waste.
I guess you could rush a bkb but that would make you quite weak until you have bkb ( 4k gold boys ), plus against a heavy physical damage source you would be fucked.
Armlet on slardar is awful, unless you have bkb it doesnt work.
For ns i agree i think vanguard is a waste, but some teams do get it ( i still remenber one game where navi got a vanguard on NS ).
The thing is if you get vanguard and you dont fight you are literally wasting your money, so unless they are ganking you 24 h getting hp just to farm is dumb.
If you get vanguard on spectre you better be diving people.
i don't think that any link of pubgames proves anything. you can go any troll build and succeed anyway.
i like to go phase -> drums -> radiance/diffusal -> heart
but it always depends on your ingame situation, your team and the amount of farm you can get
@vasile you can only have one mek per team + slardar/ns/other heroes have shit-tier manapools and putting mek on them is akin to putting mek on bristle, the reason you don't see it is because these heroes need mana and 150 mana is a third of their manapool most of the game.
^mek on bristle is amazing... it gives him more survivability AND team benefit than vanguard, for less gold. The only down side is it costs some mana (but that is completely fixed by getting a shiva), and it allows the supports to get better items for themselves. Why force CM to hold mek when she could be holding half a bkb with that money?
what whoji said + shivas is situational, HH/bkb/others are all options that could be necessary, forcing a mek->shivas build limits your item flexibility dramatically
@dorkly
level 11 bristleback has 600 mana, if he has treads on int, he has 700. mek costs 150 mana, meaning he can use his 35/30 mana cost spells + mek PLENTY before running out. If he gets shivas, his mana pool bumps up to 1100. At level 25 without shivas, he has 1400 mana, while with shivas he has 1800.
With the mek, treads, and ring of basilius, he has 14 armor, 1233 hp, 6 hp regen, the basi armor aura, the mek armor and hp regen aura, and the 250 hp burst in an aoe.
With vanguard, treads, and ring of basilius, he has 8 armor, 1388 hp, 7.7 hp regen, just the basi aura, and a chance to block 40 damage.
So getting a vanguard means you get +155 hp, +1.7 hp regen, and a damage block, but you are sacrificing 6 armor, an armor and hp regen aura, and 250 burst hp heal in an aoe. If you count the burst heal as EHP, then mek actually gives bristle more EHP than vanguard.
In a test lobby, I tried walking under tower with the vanguard and then with the mek. BB took 77 hits in the back from the tower at level 25 with strength treads, basi, and vanguard. With mek, strength treads, and basi at level 25, BB took 76 hits in the back from the tower without activating it. Should I have activated the mek, BB would have taken more tower hits with the mek than with the vanguard.
Vanguard is way better than drums for early fighting, and vanguard lets you stay on the map longer.
Drums usually gives you one extra dagger and makes you much harder to kite with the 15% MS active + passive. However, you need at least vit booster immediately after drums-rad or you will die quickly when focused.
I've had to most success with vanguard-manta-diffu, as you are tanky and hard to kite, and can farm on the map longer without fountain trips. It's not as flashy as rad build but you snowball way easier because you don't die unless you really fuck up.
Oh man I actually forgot about that Luna/Void/Spec game. Very fun, if a bit silly
In most of those games, I am keeping pace in hero damage through midgame with heroes that dominate that phase of the game like Storm/Slark/Viper. Are they getting more kills? Yes, I'm usually saving haunt for big team fights or when it's 100% needed in a gank. If the game went on another 20 minutes, the score would be heavily skewed towards me simply by virtue of Spectre excelling lategame. The game doesn't go late, because my team ends midgame.
Saying I'm just hitching on for the ride is a bit of a hyperbole, I'm usually one of the top 1-3 contributors in damage while also securing that my team can take the game late.
Wink stop trash talking his global winrates means nothing, only because he cant get 50 % winrate means he is a bad player ? rolf
As people is saying since the tranquils nerf and the vanguard buff vanguard is becoming more popular, and spectre is no exception, vanguard allows him to dive and fight way harder than with drums. For what i see wagamama really thinks this item is good on spectre.
I didnt really liked this item on spectre but now i see how effective can vanguard be.
Again, if you are going to play agresive with spectre early i guess vanguard is the best choice, getting a casual vit boster is not even close to enough hp and regen and the same with drums.
I find pretty funny people saying that rushing radiance is the best build, NOT SHIT SHERLOCK, but the thing is sometimes your team cant hold the game for you to get this item, or the enemy makes a agresive trilane or some kind of shit happens and you just cant keep farming and you need to fight.
This vanguard hate is pretty stupid, every item in this game is situational and vanguard is no exception, you cant compare the hp vanguard gives you with any other mid game item ( drums doesnt give you hp regen and it gives you less hp than vanguard ) you can compare it with mek i guess but a mek is something anyone else in your team can get.
^its not troll, its ridiculously op after getting your core items
imagine making 10 illusions from ulti alone, all with your passives, the radiance aura, the hp from heart, the AS, damage, and evasion from bfly, and the power to teleport to any of them.
youre literally bogi and calling other people dumb
did you know i play games outside of pubs?
Radiance rushing. How good is it really if they have a team that can effectively and repeatedly gank you when you're farming in lane? Here we have Spectre, a hero that statistically can't gain an advantage in even a safe lane by her own actions. The first item is the most important. A vanguard is enough to let you avoid base trips for the rest of the game, ignore lanecreep damage when you put the hits on other heroes, and increase the amount of damage output that your Dispersion will do in comparison to the amount of damage being applied to yourself. The ring of health makes it an easy build order for your gameplan, and if things start going really well for the rest of your team you can be fine holding the 1100 gold it takes to finish the item and work on something else. You can have another item much faster than Radiance so why not establish a foothold?
The day Radiance burn becomes Pure damage, we'll talk, but I don't think that rushing it will ever be core.
^leme make it tldr version
"you guys are closed minded about items. you should get vanguard because it makes you tanky, because apparently no other item in dota gives hp or hp regen and will let you dive towers with heroes who are naturally capable of diving towers without it.
drums isnt better than vanguard regardless of price, stats, and team benefit, because retards who dont know how to swap tower aggro want to eat 700 damage in a 15 second tower dive and live, because at this tier, nobody knows how to TP support"
completely misrepresents what i said. its for an entirely different style of play. if you get vanguard you are trying to play an aggressive style of play which drums simply doesn't match. drums gives your illusions more stats, but if what you are trying to accomplish is actually going balls deep engaging with the hero (plus the fact that it makes you a lot harder to kill) plus the better laning stage buildup (ring of health = lane sustainability) you are better able to a) farm your lane b) play aggressive whereas drums gives your illusions more stats and more all-around capability which is more useful for some other stuff.
price = 275 gold more, however most spectres buy a stout shield for lane regardless of build choice thus its really the same cost
stats = vanguard gives more hp see above on why thats useful + damage block + more lane sustainability which spectre has zero of and routinely gets forced back to well or to leech xp, stout shield
team benefit = yeah being able to play more aggressively and added survivability totally doesn't add anything to the team
15 second tower dive = you clearly have no understanding of what i said please re-read with an open mind
tl;dr stop basing your "claims" if i can even call them that off of things you see in the pro scene (or i don't even know what scene you get this from, "only sub-6 minute vanguards on BB/axe" is literally impossible to get unless for some reason you decide to get it without boots + get all the cs in lane or something) basically showing how little you understand about the item and its overall use, if you actually watch the pro scene maybe you can figure out how silent's spectre gameplay in those games reflects the need for vanguard over drums?
tl;dr of tl;dr
vanguard v drums:
-25 gold more (stout shield doesnt count cuz u buy anyway)
-more lane survivability/better buildup
-more aggression potential
-more overall survivability
-less stats for illusions + kinda fucks his manapool over
-less team presence (small ias/ms boost)
tell me where that analysis is wrong
care to tell me why its a bad idea for heroes like NS/slardar to get vanguard cuz you essentially said its bad on them too
One thing i noticed from switching to drums to vanguard, is that i find the hero more mana starved.
That 9 int really helps out.
Like all this shit matters, you cant win solo queue with spectre
literally imposible
http://dotabuff.com/players/114192409/matches?hero=spectre&lobby_type=&game_mode=&match_type=real
I find Vanguard to be quite useful on Spectre :o
because it delays actually useful items on ns and slardar like drums, armlet, bkb, basher (for ns), etc.
No, in heroes like slardar if you dont get vanguard you actually need to play carreful in some sense, getting vanguard on slardar lets you play a LOT more agresive, plus slardar doesnt need mana or ms or damage he already does a lot of damage, drums would be a waste.
I guess you could rush a bkb but that would make you quite weak until you have bkb ( 4k gold boys ), plus against a heavy physical damage source you would be fucked.
Armlet on slardar is awful, unless you have bkb it doesnt work.
For ns i agree i think vanguard is a waste, but some teams do get it ( i still remenber one game where navi got a vanguard on NS ).
The thing is if you get vanguard and you dont fight you are literally wasting your money, so unless they are ganking you 24 h getting hp just to farm is dumb.
If you get vanguard on spectre you better be diving people.
Okay so instead of putting that 2000+150 gold into a blink, you would rather get vanguard on slardar?
Sprint initiation on 5 man, best initiation.
yolo.
Vanguard is shit almost anytime, you can search for Merlini's vid about vanguard:D.
I find vanguard on Slardar and Spectre to be the most useless shit ever, it can't even be disassembled.
I usually go on Spectre for Phase Drums Yasha->Manta and stomp most of the games easily.
http://dotabuff.com/players/89055445/matches?hero=spectre&lobby_type=&game_mode=&match_type=real
"esp winkdiot whats that link lmao? http://dotabuff.com/matches/589414198 ez with vanguard"
this should be proof that vanguard is good ? ahaha :D :D
i don't think that any link of pubgames proves anything. you can go any troll build and succeed anyway.
i like to go phase -> drums -> radiance/diffusal -> heart
but it always depends on your ingame situation, your team and the amount of farm you can get
@vasile you can only have one mek per team + slardar/ns/other heroes have shit-tier manapools and putting mek on them is akin to putting mek on bristle, the reason you don't see it is because these heroes need mana and 150 mana is a third of their manapool most of the game.
^mek on bristle is amazing... it gives him more survivability AND team benefit than vanguard, for less gold. The only down side is it costs some mana (but that is completely fixed by getting a shiva), and it allows the supports to get better items for themselves. Why force CM to hold mek when she could be holding half a bkb with that money?
hmmmm may have to try mek on bristle sometime..... Haven't played bristle in months but do have my most assist kills with him (42)
@ wink
mek on bristle. how about the time after mek but before the shiva ?
@ Vasile
"Vanguard is shit almost anytime, you can search for Merlini's vid about vanguard:D.
I find vanguard on Slardar and Spectre to be the most useless shit ever, it can't even be disassembled.
I usually go on Spectre for Phase Drums Yasha->Manta and stomp most of the games easily."
Your 51% win rate says stomp half the time not most of the games :P
http://dotabuff.com/players/89055445/heroes
hit r gg pz.
Also, I am a huge supporter of vanguard on Spectre. So is Waga.
@whoji红湖水
Well, before shivas you can always use your W 2 times and mek and be out of mana i dont see the problem
what whoji said + shivas is situational, HH/bkb/others are all options that could be necessary, forcing a mek->shivas build limits your item flexibility dramatically
@dorkly
level 11 bristleback has 600 mana, if he has treads on int, he has 700. mek costs 150 mana, meaning he can use his 35/30 mana cost spells + mek PLENTY before running out. If he gets shivas, his mana pool bumps up to 1100. At level 25 without shivas, he has 1400 mana, while with shivas he has 1800.
With the mek, treads, and ring of basilius, he has 14 armor, 1233 hp, 6 hp regen, the basi armor aura, the mek armor and hp regen aura, and the 250 hp burst in an aoe.
With vanguard, treads, and ring of basilius, he has 8 armor, 1388 hp, 7.7 hp regen, just the basi aura, and a chance to block 40 damage.
So getting a vanguard means you get +155 hp, +1.7 hp regen, and a damage block, but you are sacrificing 6 armor, an armor and hp regen aura, and 250 burst hp heal in an aoe. If you count the burst heal as EHP, then mek actually gives bristle more EHP than vanguard.
In a test lobby, I tried walking under tower with the vanguard and then with the mek. BB took 77 hits in the back from the tower at level 25 with strength treads, basi, and vanguard. With mek, strength treads, and basi at level 25, BB took 76 hits in the back from the tower without activating it. Should I have activated the mek, BB would have taken more tower hits with the mek than with the vanguard.
I tried Drums on Spectre. It went well.
Vanguard is way better than drums for early fighting, and vanguard lets you stay on the map longer.
Drums usually gives you one extra dagger and makes you much harder to kite with the 15% MS active + passive. However, you need at least vit booster immediately after drums-rad or you will die quickly when focused.
I've had to most success with vanguard-manta-diffu, as you are tanky and hard to kite, and can farm on the map longer without fountain trips. It's not as flashy as rad build but you snowball way easier because you don't die unless you really fuck up.
Source: http://dotabuff.com/players/79461888/matches?date=&faction=&hero=spectre&lobby_type=&game_mode=&duration=
You can see I snowball on at least 2/3s of my Spectre games, and I think that's the real strength of vanguard.
^YOU snowball? Your teammates are the ones snowballing, you're just hitching along for the ride.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/537599166 - Luna did better than you, FV did well too
http://dotabuff.com/matches/496628509 - Slark carried you
http://dotabuff.com/matches/481424524 - SS carried you
http://dotabuff.com/matches/477267300 - Ursa carried you
http://dotabuff.com/matches/474719514 - You actually did okay
http://dotabuff.com/matches/467917518 - Looks like all you did was get pick offs and farm, wtf is that TD? Weaver did more work.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/464909050 - NP and Viper carry you
PT vanguard radiance.
I have 64% winrate on spectre
^nearly 2000 games and cant win even half of your games, yet tries to use high winrate in trash tier as an example?
Oh man I actually forgot about that Luna/Void/Spec game. Very fun, if a bit silly
In most of those games, I am keeping pace in hero damage through midgame with heroes that dominate that phase of the game like Storm/Slark/Viper. Are they getting more kills? Yes, I'm usually saving haunt for big team fights or when it's 100% needed in a gank. If the game went on another 20 minutes, the score would be heavily skewed towards me simply by virtue of Spectre excelling lategame. The game doesn't go late, because my team ends midgame.
Saying I'm just hitching on for the ride is a bit of a hyperbole, I'm usually one of the top 1-3 contributors in damage while also securing that my team can take the game late.
Wink stop trash talking his global winrates means nothing, only because he cant get 50 % winrate means he is a bad player ? rolf
As people is saying since the tranquils nerf and the vanguard buff vanguard is becoming more popular, and spectre is no exception, vanguard allows him to dive and fight way harder than with drums. For what i see wagamama really thinks this item is good on spectre.
I didnt really liked this item on spectre but now i see how effective can vanguard be.
Again, if you are going to play agresive with spectre early i guess vanguard is the best choice, getting a casual vit boster is not even close to enough hp and regen and the same with drums.
I find pretty funny people saying that rushing radiance is the best build, NOT SHIT SHERLOCK, but the thing is sometimes your team cant hold the game for you to get this item, or the enemy makes a agresive trilane or some kind of shit happens and you just cant keep farming and you need to fight.
This vanguard hate is pretty stupid, every item in this game is situational and vanguard is no exception, you cant compare the hp vanguard gives you with any other mid game item ( drums doesnt give you hp regen and it gives you less hp than vanguard ) you can compare it with mek i guess but a mek is something anyone else in your team can get.
You can check it yourself: http://www.datdota.com/stats.php?p=items
144 games Bristle goes vanguard, Darkseer gets vanguard a lot too, NS, etc ... ( Plus vanguard has almost 60 % winrate in competitive games )
And before you say 838 times bought is a really low amount, halberd only has been build 769 times and that doesnt make the item bad.
"PT vanguard radiance.
I have 64% winrate on spectre"
no vanguard, boots of speed, 65.22% WR
http://dotabuff.com/players/116766145/matches?hero=spectre&game_mode=&match_type=real
The refreshers is fucking troll as balls, I can see it being massively annoying. Haunt twice from fountain come into the fight on the second one?
^its not troll, its ridiculously op after getting your core items
imagine making 10 illusions from ulti alone, all with your passives, the radiance aura, the hp from heart, the AS, damage, and evasion from bfly, and the power to teleport to any of them.
Its true i always thought of refresher being the one of the best late game items for spectre
the reason why vanguard still works so well for certain heroes like SPEC is because the block comes in after damage is reduced
so if you're reducing like 70% dmg, you're pretty much blocking most physical dps if not, entirely
even with the huge buff on tide's kraken shell, spec could just go toe to toe with me with an equal amount of farm/level
@wit.hint
All of those games are non-ranked,
Same player. drum vs vanguard winrate. all ranked. 3.5k - 3.7k mmr
http://dotabuff.com/players/67902131/matches?date=&duration=&faction=&game_mode=&hero=spectre&lobby_type=ranked_matchmaking
in terms of winrate:
drum: 19 W - 20 L
vanguard: 10 W - 10 L
conclusion: NOT A BIG DIFFERENCE.
^^ well, ranked didn't exist 4 months ago..