Hope they neft him, he's even more annoying than slark/troll/ES/Invoker when they were broken. I mean cmon, even with ancients warded early and no early feeds he could get dagon 5, etheral blade, BoT and blink at 40 mintues. You're almost forced to play a push lineup or 4 STR lineup to counter him.
there are several items tinker already cant rearm. i think if they add ethereal and/or blink to the list it will balance him out. or just straight up disallowing blink.
just nerf march, he can still farm and get dagon 5 ethereal, he just can't delay a game for 20 min by himself. also im surprised void hasn't been nerfed yet, he's now top 3 in most played lmao, new cancer every month
The thing is, Tinker needs a nerf not exactly because of how powerful he is, but for how annoying and desperating he can get. Unless he AND his team get completely stomped to the ground in the first few minutes, he ALONE will delay even a completely hopeless match for anything between 10 and 20 minutes in a pointless attempt to make a comeback that will never come.
I know it's been proven a long time ago that many people don't play Dota for fun or even consider it a fun game, but Tinker takes it to a extreme that shouldn't be allowed. There are probably a few more heroes who can do that as well, but only Tinker can do that by casting 2 spells repeatedly without doing anything resembling skill whatsoever.
people figured out that if you're smart about your soul ring and dropping your items at the right time you barely have a drawback from leveling rearm to at least level 2
actually think soul ring is the most disgusting thing on tinker at least the shit about enhancing soul ring effects by dropping mana pool items
also being able to blink away after rearming when you're getting hit all the time seems fucking dumb to me
i mean there's a reason they removed that shit in the first place and it's not like blinks so bad on tinker that it needs that feature
i think tinker was very good for at least a year or two now but the players all got so much better at it and the balancing on it was done before people were actually good at the hero
remember when an "early" dagon after blink was considered clowny or when people where actually considering really hard whether to go for blink or force on him
yup used to be a thing
Kit must have started playing dota this year or something if he actually believes the shit he is saying. Icefrog has never balanced the game around the pro scene. Usually what happens is pros pick it up FROM the pub scene.(watch any of the top drafters where they come up with their new draft ideas) The biggest nerfs last patch came to heroes that where not even allowed in CM (ES and brood)
wasnt naga nerfed right after ti2 as well as lone druid right after ti3
if you think icefrog or whatever team is balancing dota is not looking at the pro scene then you're actually pretty ignorant
obviously they try to balance heroes that arent in cm yet or have never been in as well to get them there so they are also looking at the data they get from pubs or input of actual good players
i actually just watched 2 replays from ti2
in one game dendi went safelane tinker and didnt buy a bottle all game and rushed sheep after blink
he also got an ultimate orb and never dropped it when in the fountain
another game super went for force staff instead of blink and there was no clock or some shit just an am and brood
and they way he used force staff was pretty impressive but it's still no fucking blink
i checked 5 games from ti2 and in 3/5 games people had force staffs
if you'd see tinker players play like that you'd tell them to stop playing that hero because they have no fucking idea how to play it
and still people picked it back then ( i understand that players were overall a lot worse as well and that the game was in a different place back then, too)
they where nerfed because they where gods in pubs, OBVIOUSLY he does not completely ignore pro dota but his main focus is the general population, the pro scene just sometimes overlaps with the pubs. You act like force staff was not the main item in EVERY single pub game at the time and you where laughed at if you did not build it every single game.
you know how he balanced dota 1 right?
definitely not by looking at battlenet pubs or trying to get an impression from one of the few popular clients
he had a team of beta testers and watched competitive games to see how things worked out
if you watched the scene a little bit and followerd the changelogs you could see that he was aware of what was going on
He's not OP at all. It's all about maneuvering and out-maneuvering. The hero concept itself is balanced as far as difficulty of using it. I've been practicing Tinker recently and I've only recently mastered using all 10 buttons in the clash. But even in my prime, a PA with BKB can still out-maneuver me in-game so this debate is pointless.
^^ Stalling the game for several minutes by pressing E, R and then E again on high ground takes no skill whatsoever and definitely is total bullshit, specially if his team loses anyway which is most likely to happen since he's hogginp up all his team's available farm.
you are so clueless its sad. Did I say he sat there and watched pubs? I said data from pubs where used to influence where he made changes. It is pretty fucking obvious but you are too delusional to see it. If his main focus was pro scene he would have let brood and ES into the pro scene then see how played out BUT he tested them in pubs THEN balanced THEN sent them to pro. The balance comes from pubs NOT pro scene. Yes some things sneak past but that is a mistake rather then where his intentions are.
youre so fucking dumb its actually hurting
how did he use data from pubs in dota 1 then?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
yeah right im stupid
youre actually just really fucking dumb
you dont even have a point
all i was saying is that icefrogs taking the competitive scene to see whats fucking broken and what isn't
you're saying he's taking data from pubs and then you talk about shit like earth spirit while completely ignoring that the hero had a 38% win rate and still got nerfed further (while actually still being stupidly good)
oh yeah he's looking at the general population so thats why he nerfed it right....
what you dont fucking understand is that balance has to consider the highest level of play and that's what hes doing
and fucking lone druid and naga didn't fucking dominate pubs at all before ti2 and ti3
they were crushing at ti and got nerfed right after
if you actually think icefrog used battlenet bots or whatever to get data and balanced based on that then there you go
i dont think i can actually help you
and i've never said he ignores pubs at all but he balanced fucking dota 1 without looking at pubs just with his team of beta testers so that actually worked out
you have the deduction skill of an ape actually
lets take earth spirit 40% win rate or something
whys he getting nerfed? to get him into a balanced state for COMPETITIVE PLAY
and competitive and pub dota is the same game just with different levels of execution
if a hero's fucking broken in one he's broken in the other as well
Wisp was certainly not nerfed because of his amazing pub performance, even though his success goes up drastically as the skill level increases. The same can be said for Chen and a couple more.
On the other hand, Spirit Breaker, Warlock and other heroes who were among the top of the pub winrates were not nerfed because of how well they performed at the competitive scene now, were they?
ES was balanced around competitive play WITHOUT being tested in competitive play LOL. Please tell me which teams tested ES for icefrog in scrims? You seem to have that data right?
I remenber being one of the players who were bitching about him back at the time
Tinker, by the other hand only stomps 4k+ games ( i would actually say 5k+, i dont think there is good tinker players before 5k ) so if he nerfs him is based only by high level PUB games.
If tinker gets a strong nerf get ready to see him with 35 % in pubs and 0 in competitive.
Or you are going to say that tinker stomps 3k 4k games ? please, in any of those brackets tinker is free food.
In competitive you just need to check his actual winrate in datdota and you will see how he loses more games than he wins by a large amount.
The only issue is to play against really good tinker players ( that you will usually only find at 4.5k+ , 5k+ ) those are the ones that fuck pub games.
and all the 5k thing.. well, if he plays only tinker and was able to get to 5k, congratz, its not like you tell a 1k mmr player to play tinker only and he will win all the games up to 5k
if he keeps a winrate of 50% at 5k shows that he deserves to be there. it doesn't mean he can stomp there, but he can maintain a solid game, thats all
sampson complains about smurf but he smurfs also, "erh dude but i dont like to play muted", so what? he doesn't like to play in games where he feels he is the best player yet he can't win 1v9 (lets not come with the juice thing because he lost several games at 4.5k+ games while being a 6k player himself).. in the end of the day you two guys smurf and thats it
he ruined like 10 games which valve used to measure what his true skills were.
it is similar to a 4k player who plays with 2k friends in party, he will be playing against terrible players, but that is accepted just fine, and people proudly brag about it "look how these kind of games look like when I play with my noob friends" *shows a 20/0 stomp*
let the guy smurf if he wants to, he is not less of a player for doing that, he is still better than you and than 80% of people from this forum
Hope they neft him, he's even more annoying than slark/troll/ES/Invoker when they were broken. I mean cmon, even with ancients warded early and no early feeds he could get dagon 5, etheral blade, BoT and blink at 40 mintues. You're almost forced to play a push lineup or 4 STR lineup to counter him.
There's one simple nerf on him that would make him still strong - but less fucked.
Disallowing blink on him.
It makes sense in every way.
the trick to beating tinker is to hope the other team has a smurf player even worse than yours in your game
http://www.dotabuff.com/players/190972493
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/910247533
there are several items tinker already cant rearm. i think if they add ethereal and/or blink to the list it will balance him out. or just straight up disallowing blink.
just nerf march, he can still farm and get dagon 5 ethereal, he just can't delay a game for 20 min by himself. also im surprised void hasn't been nerfed yet, he's now top 3 in most played lmao, new cancer every month
can you and sampson stop posting matches and talking shit. nobody cares at all.
showing us some match ids from your games in no way indicates how powerful the hero is.
just a trash tinker player, entering the thread.
The thing is, Tinker needs a nerf not exactly because of how powerful he is, but for how annoying and desperating he can get. Unless he AND his team get completely stomped to the ground in the first few minutes, he ALONE will delay even a completely hopeless match for anything between 10 and 20 minutes in a pointless attempt to make a comeback that will never come.
I know it's been proven a long time ago that many people don't play Dota for fun or even consider it a fun game, but Tinker takes it to a extreme that shouldn't be allowed. There are probably a few more heroes who can do that as well, but only Tinker can do that by casting 2 spells repeatedly without doing anything resembling skill whatsoever.
Brood comes to mind. Think i hate that hero even more than tinker.
people figured out that if you're smart about your soul ring and dropping your items at the right time you barely have a drawback from leveling rearm to at least level 2
actually think soul ring is the most disgusting thing on tinker at least the shit about enhancing soul ring effects by dropping mana pool items
also being able to blink away after rearming when you're getting hit all the time seems fucking dumb to me
i mean there's a reason they removed that shit in the first place and it's not like blinks so bad on tinker that it needs that feature
i think tinker was very good for at least a year or two now but the players all got so much better at it and the balancing on it was done before people were actually good at the hero
remember when an "early" dagon after blink was considered clowny or when people where actually considering really hard whether to go for blink or force on him
yup used to be a thing
if dota makes it's patches from the pro scene, then why was SB nerfed?
" Ohhhh they never miss "
Kit must have started playing dota this year or something if he actually believes the shit he is saying. Icefrog has never balanced the game around the pro scene. Usually what happens is pros pick it up FROM the pub scene.(watch any of the top drafters where they come up with their new draft ideas) The biggest nerfs last patch came to heroes that where not even allowed in CM (ES and brood)
and slark WAS nerfed.........are you blind or stupid?
meh a tinker picker crying coz the op shit will get rekt this patch and he will lose mmr like crazy shit. learn to play other heroes, tinker shitters.
wasnt naga nerfed right after ti2 as well as lone druid right after ti3
if you think icefrog or whatever team is balancing dota is not looking at the pro scene then you're actually pretty ignorant
obviously they try to balance heroes that arent in cm yet or have never been in as well to get them there so they are also looking at the data they get from pubs or input of actual good players
i actually just watched 2 replays from ti2
in one game dendi went safelane tinker and didnt buy a bottle all game and rushed sheep after blink
he also got an ultimate orb and never dropped it when in the fountain
another game super went for force staff instead of blink and there was no clock or some shit just an am and brood
and they way he used force staff was pretty impressive but it's still no fucking blink
i checked 5 games from ti2 and in 3/5 games people had force staffs
if you'd see tinker players play like that you'd tell them to stop playing that hero because they have no fucking idea how to play it
and still people picked it back then ( i understand that players were overall a lot worse as well and that the game was in a different place back then, too)
they where nerfed because they where gods in pubs, OBVIOUSLY he does not completely ignore pro dota but his main focus is the general population, the pro scene just sometimes overlaps with the pubs. You act like force staff was not the main item in EVERY single pub game at the time and you where laughed at if you did not build it every single game.
you know how he balanced dota 1 right?
definitely not by looking at battlenet pubs or trying to get an impression from one of the few popular clients
he had a team of beta testers and watched competitive games to see how things worked out
if you watched the scene a little bit and followerd the changelogs you could see that he was aware of what was going on
He's not OP at all. It's all about maneuvering and out-maneuvering. The hero concept itself is balanced as far as difficulty of using it. I've been practicing Tinker recently and I've only recently mastered using all 10 buttons in the clash. But even in my prime, a PA with BKB can still out-maneuver me in-game so this debate is pointless.
oh because your tinker sucks the hero is balanced
i like your reasoning
^^ Stalling the game for several minutes by pressing E, R and then E again on high ground takes no skill whatsoever and definitely is total bullshit, specially if his team loses anyway which is most likely to happen since he's hogginp up all his team's available farm.
you are so clueless its sad. Did I say he sat there and watched pubs? I said data from pubs where used to influence where he made changes. It is pretty fucking obvious but you are too delusional to see it. If his main focus was pro scene he would have let brood and ES into the pro scene then see how played out BUT he tested them in pubs THEN balanced THEN sent them to pro. The balance comes from pubs NOT pro scene. Yes some things sneak past but that is a mistake rather then where his intentions are.
youre so fucking dumb its actually hurting
how did he use data from pubs in dota 1 then?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
yeah right im stupid
You realize dota 1 had multiple bots collecting data. My god you are stupid
there are heroes who aren't in CM, so how does icefrog test them if they can't be played in pro games? it's pubs ofc stop being a retard
youre actually just really fucking dumb
you dont even have a point
all i was saying is that icefrogs taking the competitive scene to see whats fucking broken and what isn't
you're saying he's taking data from pubs and then you talk about shit like earth spirit while completely ignoring that the hero had a 38% win rate and still got nerfed further (while actually still being stupidly good)
oh yeah he's looking at the general population so thats why he nerfed it right....
what you dont fucking understand is that balance has to consider the highest level of play and that's what hes doing
and fucking lone druid and naga didn't fucking dominate pubs at all before ti2 and ti3
they were crushing at ti and got nerfed right after
if you actually think icefrog used battlenet bots or whatever to get data and balanced based on that then there you go
i dont think i can actually help you
and i've never said he ignores pubs at all but he balanced fucking dota 1 without looking at pubs just with his team of beta testers so that actually worked out
'balance has to consider the highest level of play'
Should it be balanced around the top? In my opinion it should be. Is it actually balanced around the top? No.
that's it, you are just making yourself look more and more like a idiot
The fact that there are balance changes on released heroes not in CM shows this fact
you have the deduction skill of an ape actually
lets take earth spirit 40% win rate or something
whys he getting nerfed? to get him into a balanced state for COMPETITIVE PLAY
and competitive and pub dota is the same game just with different levels of execution
if a hero's fucking broken in one he's broken in the other as well
ui dont even know how you use a keyboard
Or maybe he takes data from both sides?
Wisp was certainly not nerfed because of his amazing pub performance, even though his success goes up drastically as the skill level increases. The same can be said for Chen and a couple more.
On the other hand, Spirit Breaker, Warlock and other heroes who were among the top of the pub winrates were not nerfed because of how well they performed at the competitive scene now, were they?
ES was balanced around competitive play WITHOUT being tested in competitive play LOL. Please tell me which teams tested ES for icefrog in scrims? You seem to have that data right?
what the fuck happened to you man?
Spirit breaker was nerfed based on low pub games
I remenber being one of the players who were bitching about him back at the time
Tinker, by the other hand only stomps 4k+ games ( i would actually say 5k+, i dont think there is good tinker players before 5k ) so if he nerfs him is based only by high level PUB games.
If tinker gets a strong nerf get ready to see him with 35 % in pubs and 0 in competitive.
you realize that most pros consider 4-5k complete trash so I dont think saying calling it high level works here Mr. Dork
? High level PUB games
Or you are going to say that tinker stomps 3k 4k games ? please, in any of those brackets tinker is free food.
In competitive you just need to check his actual winrate in datdota and you will see how he loses more games than he wins by a large amount.
The only issue is to play against really good tinker players ( that you will usually only find at 4.5k+ , 5k+ ) those are the ones that fuck pub games.
tinker does stomp 3k games pretty easy because most of the players dont know how to deal with march when going high ground
@animefag earth spirit was nerfed because he was OP in pubs u fucking monkey, stop posting you're giving me cancer
tinker stomps 3k games if the player is not a 3k one, but a smurf, that i would agree
whenever I see a tinker in this 3k account here and i'm not the one playing it, I know hes gonna suck.
Yep Tinker needs a nerf. Sick of the hero turning up in over half my games (dont quote me on that, but it feels like it).
Between tinker, dp and void I feel like my games are slowly losing variety.
right icefrog has no intention to ever add earth spirit to captains mode
actually can you fucking use your fucking brain before you post
and all the 5k thing.. well, if he plays only tinker and was able to get to 5k, congratz, its not like you tell a 1k mmr player to play tinker only and he will win all the games up to 5k
if he keeps a winrate of 50% at 5k shows that he deserves to be there. it doesn't mean he can stomp there, but he can maintain a solid game, thats all
sampson complains about smurf but he smurfs also, "erh dude but i dont like to play muted", so what? he doesn't like to play in games where he feels he is the best player yet he can't win 1v9 (lets not come with the juice thing because he lost several games at 4.5k+ games while being a 6k player himself).. in the end of the day you two guys smurf and thats it
he ruined like 10 games which valve used to measure what his true skills were.
it is similar to a 4k player who plays with 2k friends in party, he will be playing against terrible players, but that is accepted just fine, and people proudly brag about it "look how these kind of games look like when I play with my noob friends" *shows a 20/0 stomp*
let the guy smurf if he wants to, he is not less of a player for doing that, he is still better than you and than 80% of people from this forum