DP buff is in the wrong direction. They should make her immune to blademail reflection from her ult spirits. i.e. change the damage source to spirit rather than DP. Blademail screw her hard.
AND DONT GET ME WRONG, IM A FILTHY SPLITPUSH VETERAN 4HEAD FURION PICKER
Nothing satisfy me more than winning a hard ass splitpush game with Furion or OldOPMETA Terrorblade. It's the worst and frustrating to play vs. though.
Previously BS got movement speed and damaged if any heroes were below 100% hp. This mean even when they were relatively healthy like 500/600 hp in lane, BS got significant damage and movespeed. The change nerfs his laning stage and well, basically every stage since he no longer benefits from people being slightly injured.
Seem like lifestealer meta to me. Can control ancient creeps and icefrog buffed ancient creeps too and that Night Stalker buff is kind of good, it means you will be seeing more and more NS offlane.
Interesting update for Undying.
I think it scales better now with the rework of tombstone and agh. However, the placement of tombstone early game gonna be crucial.
Was expecting more buffs to splitpush and ratdota. I'm happy with cast time buff to LC and the exorcism level 1 buffs though (now worth getting exo at level 6).
Also no nerfs to SF? He was very popular both 6.83 and 6.84, so why doesn't he get any changes?
Isn't that the same for storm though? (He got nerfed a lot) But even if these heroes die a few times early they can come back by killing stacks in the jungle. SFs often farm both jungle and lane very early too (though mostly on radiant).
Me thinks the nerf for Storm is mostly for the mid-late game (his Ball Lightening basically cost the double amount of mana now?! ) Imho SF didn't get hit by the nerf bat due to him being not mobile and not having a disable, unlike Storm. (nevermind that they both can comeback with stacks etc.)
Btw, when would you get crit on CK now? Is it worth getting at level 4 or would you still max reality first? It's still a very low chance, though as pseudo-random you can play around the rng by realitying when you've not crit a creep 5-ish times in a row for a much bigger chance of critting on your next hit.
bloodstone nerf was aimed to deal with storm and leshrac, but it hit timbersaw a bit too hard, and I think Sam is right - even the whirling death cd reduction wont compensate it.
^this is what I hate about item nerfs. They nerf all heroes that depend on them, which is really, really trash. I cringed when they nerfed MoM because JUGG was too strong with it, and he could easily catch up with phase + mom and then ult, like he's the only fucking hero who uses it. Now timbersaw's bloodstone is trash and the hero was no way in position to receive a nerf.
Because Bloodstone will give you such stupidly high mana regen if you're snowballing that it'll allow you to become stronger over time, and kill everyone, practically. That's what timber does. While hex would arguably be good on him (and even Atos, actually), Bloodstone is just better if you get it early.
The bloodstone nerfs really are only regarding the things related to not getting punished that hard if you die - just don't and your Bloodstone Timber should be fine.
I agree with Sven. The biggest losses on a hero are often the item changes. For example, Lina:
1) LSA nerf means virtually nothing.
2) Ult damage reduction isn't that serious.
3) Eul's range reduction (affects other heroes too) is the most serious change. This makes it harder for lina to solo gank, because her initiation is now the lowest range skill in her skillset, forcing the lina player to have blink + euls to have the effect of just euls.
Thank you, Icefrog! These heroes are finally weakened:
Storm, Leshrac, Techies (Aui is right: Techies does not belong in DotA.)
I shouldn't play my favorite any more:
Lina, Timbersaw (Storm gets bloodstone nerfed...Timbersaw suffers; with the weakening of burst meta and strengthening of melee STR carries, Timbersaw will face many 45+ min. games where he just feeds lycan or slardar)
I should play my favorite less:
Gyro, Bloodseeker, Huskar
Heroes that are good in 6.85 that I like and should improve:
OD, Omni, Alchemist, Chaos Knight, Enchantress, Lone Druid, Shadow Shaman
Heroes who were not really changed in 6.85 that I am working on:
Sven, Centaur, Ogre (I play him as nuker rather than carry attack booster; these changes aren't that exciting), Bane (slightly cheaper spells, nothing serious), WR (no change), Necro (never ancient farmed in 6.84 so the changes don't bother me), Bounty Hunter (I play him ganker, not support; the changes don't really bother me)
Heroes I like who still aren't improved enough to be playable:
Drow, DP, Clinkz, Sniper, Batrider
Interesting, but I can't play:
Chen
Icefrog agrees with my playstyle; I need to play more of these heroes:
Nyx (default build = BoT + aghs + eblade + dagon1), Luna (hybrid carry = moon shard x2 + aghs + manta + satanic)
Need Testing:
Viper (carry build?)
Venge (carry build?)
New Enemies and Boosted Newb Favorites that I will need to counter:
Riki (watch as all the people who can't play blood or lesh anymore return to their first love...more regen and diffusal without timer...)
Pudge
Legion Commander
Warlock
Furion
Lycan
Lion
Brewmaster
Slark (Weakning of burst meta = harder to kill slark early = more time to farm and become truly invincible)
Naga (Weakening of burst meta + ult upgrade = more teamfight healing and more time to farm and become truly invincible)
@cheese
you cant rly do much without any items for hp, hp regen and mana regen. euls gives only mana regen, and it is rather small, too. BS is still the default 1st item in 99.5% of games.
^didnt he alrdy have one of the highest starting armors in the whole game? smthng like 5-6?
it feels that sometimes volvo doesnt know how to buff heroes that are not picked, and they just open the logs of the last buffs they gsve to these heroes and add +1 to all the buffs (im oretty sure that's where alchemist's changes in 6.85 origin).
i think the best thing happened to this patch is ogre. you buy armor thing on the start, 11 fucking armor...
there are couple of changes taht are interesting like ck, naix mb?
all in all small patch, couple of nerfes to main heroes. I hope people will now move from pl, lina, lesh (even though, lets be honest, they are barely nerfed) to new solutions.
Storm overnerfed. I think Bloodstone nerf + vision + remnant would be enough. Ulti nerf trashed him ;/ He was not even that OP compared to other heroes like Gyro, Blood, Lesh, Lina, PL etc. He got the biggest nerf, I would say it's nearly as hard as Lesh.
Undying got buffed, don't know what Icefrog is smoking. Hero now has no drawbacks, coz he scales amazingly. His early is weaker, but late game significantly stronger.
yeah finally some nerfs for storm, that is actually good. Hopefully his winrate will decrease for a bit. But you know, you cant balance storm. That hero will never be trash tier, always be either top pick or as alternative.
DP buff is in the wrong direction. They should make her immune to blademail reflection from her ult spirits. i.e. change the damage source to spirit rather than DP. Blademail screw her hard.
AND DONT GET ME WRONG, IM A FILTHY SPLITPUSH VETERAN 4HEAD FURION PICKER
Nothing satisfy me more than winning a hard ass splitpush game with Furion or OldOPMETA Terrorblade. It's the worst and frustrating to play vs. though.
why is bottle nerfed every single patch?
maaybe because its bought on several heroes every game. Maybe Icefraud wants it to be more exclusive.
Also I believe CK and Legion are two hjeroes that are pretty damn Legit now. (INow I rofl stomped with CK before thins patch)
soooo you can bkb to block dispersion now? unless your doing pure dmg?
I also dont really understand the bs nerf did he lose dmg or what?
Previously BS got movement speed and damaged if any heroes were below 100% hp. This mean even when they were relatively healthy like 500/600 hp in lane, BS got significant damage and movespeed. The change nerfs his laning stage and well, basically every stage since he no longer benefits from people being slightly injured.
Seem like lifestealer meta to me. Can control ancient creeps and icefrog buffed ancient creeps too and that Night Stalker buff is kind of good, it means you will be seeing more and more NS offlane.
BKB will block Dispersion if you are dealing magic damage but not if you are dealing Pure OR Physical.
Overall I'm really happy with the patch. Some much needed nerfs and some pretty sweet buffs.
I actually like the TB changes if only for style points.
It seems techies time is up
Legion's got pretty nice buffs. Also, wanna try phase legion now, with OO + new phase she will move ridiculously fast.
Legion still not legits.
At 2k everything is legit :x
2k-3.8k LC dunno how to play him.
LC in team = lose. Just remember that.
wtf tb is nerfef again..and why remove it from cm
Interesting update for Undying.
I think it scales better now with the rework of tombstone and agh. However, the placement of tombstone early game gonna be crucial.
anyways im sure theres gonna be lich+1 cancer offlane every game
"2k-3.8k LC dunno how to play him.
LC in team = lose. Just remember that."
I've got ~60% wr with LC @2k, used to be 70%, and that's 125 games of that hero.
"wtf tb is nerfef again..and why remove it from cm"
Isn't it obvious they seriously want to rework the hero?
Bloodlust can now be cast on towers <---- Can a nigguh get a Hallelujah? :D
Was expecting more buffs to splitpush and ratdota. I'm happy with cast time buff to LC and the exorcism level 1 buffs though (now worth getting exo at level 6).
Also no nerfs to SF? He was very popular both 6.83 and 6.84, so why doesn't he get any changes?
^because you can still wreck him early.
im really grateful for that change on SB, making random 17% pseudorandom; i was actually looking forwards to see it some day.
This patch seems legit
Isn't that the same for storm though? (He got nerfed a lot) But even if these heroes die a few times early they can come back by killing stacks in the jungle. SFs often farm both jungle and lane very early too (though mostly on radiant).
Me thinks the nerf for Storm is mostly for the mid-late game (his Ball Lightening basically cost the double amount of mana now?! ) Imho SF didn't get hit by the nerf bat due to him being not mobile and not having a disable, unlike Storm. (nevermind that they both can comeback with stacks etc.)
Somebody will always farm ancients. It was Necrophos before, it will be Alchemist now.
CK is new mainstream carry, I guess.
SF is actually so good right now. Techies is dead, Bloodstone is dead, Timbersaw is just done for.
Supporting is going to be even harder to play with some heroes
Btw, when would you get crit on CK now? Is it worth getting at level 4 or would you still max reality first? It's still a very low chance, though as pseudo-random you can play around the rng by realitying when you've not crit a creep 5-ish times in a row for a much bigger chance of critting on your next hit.
i think it's the same build
3 2 1 0 at lvl 6
the thing im happiest about is the storm nerf, FUCK SUMAIL, now he's trash (every one of his heroes got nerfed or more accurately DE-OP'OUT)
bloodstone nerf was aimed to deal with storm and leshrac, but it hit timbersaw a bit too hard, and I think Sam is right - even the whirling death cd reduction wont compensate it.
^this is what I hate about item nerfs. They nerf all heroes that depend on them, which is really, really trash. I cringed when they nerfed MoM because JUGG was too strong with it, and he could easily catch up with phase + mom and then ult, like he's the only fucking hero who uses it. Now timbersaw's bloodstone is trash and the hero was no way in position to receive a nerf.
Why not just build him differently. Since bloodstone is obsolete you could build Euls into hex or something?
Good riddance Techies, I won't miss you.
Because Bloodstone will give you such stupidly high mana regen if you're snowballing that it'll allow you to become stronger over time, and kill everyone, practically. That's what timber does. While hex would arguably be good on him (and even Atos, actually), Bloodstone is just better if you get it early.
The bloodstone nerfs really are only regarding the things related to not getting punished that hard if you die - just don't and your Bloodstone Timber should be fine.
I agree with Sven. The biggest losses on a hero are often the item changes. For example, Lina:
1) LSA nerf means virtually nothing.
2) Ult damage reduction isn't that serious.
3) Eul's range reduction (affects other heroes too) is the most serious change. This makes it harder for lina to solo gank, because her initiation is now the lowest range skill in her skillset, forcing the lina player to have blink + euls to have the effect of just euls.
Thank you, Icefrog! These heroes are finally weakened:
Storm, Leshrac, Techies (Aui is right: Techies does not belong in DotA.)
I shouldn't play my favorite any more:
Lina, Timbersaw (Storm gets bloodstone nerfed...Timbersaw suffers; with the weakening of burst meta and strengthening of melee STR carries, Timbersaw will face many 45+ min. games where he just feeds lycan or slardar)
I should play my favorite less:
Gyro, Bloodseeker, Huskar
Heroes that are good in 6.85 that I like and should improve:
OD, Omni, Alchemist, Chaos Knight, Enchantress, Lone Druid, Shadow Shaman
Heroes who were not really changed in 6.85 that I am working on:
Sven, Centaur, Ogre (I play him as nuker rather than carry attack booster; these changes aren't that exciting), Bane (slightly cheaper spells, nothing serious), WR (no change), Necro (never ancient farmed in 6.84 so the changes don't bother me), Bounty Hunter (I play him ganker, not support; the changes don't really bother me)
Heroes I like who still aren't improved enough to be playable:
Drow, DP, Clinkz, Sniper, Batrider
Interesting, but I can't play:
Chen
Icefrog agrees with my playstyle; I need to play more of these heroes:
Nyx (default build = BoT + aghs + eblade + dagon1), Luna (hybrid carry = moon shard x2 + aghs + manta + satanic)
Need Testing:
Viper (carry build?)
Venge (carry build?)
New Enemies and Boosted Newb Favorites that I will need to counter:
Riki (watch as all the people who can't play blood or lesh anymore return to their first love...more regen and diffusal without timer...)
Pudge
Legion Commander
Warlock
Furion
Lycan
Lion
Brewmaster
Slark (Weakning of burst meta = harder to kill slark early = more time to farm and become truly invincible)
Naga (Weakening of burst meta + ult upgrade = more teamfight healing and more time to farm and become truly invincible)
Valve??? What is this?!:
Terrorblade
Oracle
can people in normal skill bracket stop trying to make deep analysis
thanks
but look at the terrorblade pickrate and winrate change
what's going on
@cheese
you cant rly do much without any items for hp, hp regen and mana regen. euls gives only mana regen, and it is rather small, too. BS is still the default 1st item in 99.5% of games.
cause people in vhs never analyze anythingthey keep shitting the bottom of them.
+1 armor on ogre just made my day xd.
Might as well change him to red like sven and ursa so you know you dont touch him.
^didnt he alrdy have one of the highest starting armors in the whole game? smthng like 5-6?
it feels that sometimes volvo doesnt know how to buff heroes that are not picked, and they just open the logs of the last buffs they gsve to these heroes and add +1 to all the buffs (im oretty sure that's where alchemist's changes in 6.85 origin).
i think the best thing happened to this patch is ogre. you buy armor thing on the start, 11 fucking armor...
there are couple of changes taht are interesting like ck, naix mb?
all in all small patch, couple of nerfes to main heroes. I hope people will now move from pl, lina, lesh (even though, lets be honest, they are barely nerfed) to new solutions.
Storm overnerfed. I think Bloodstone nerf + vision + remnant would be enough. Ulti nerf trashed him ;/ He was not even that OP compared to other heroes like Gyro, Blood, Lesh, Lina, PL etc. He got the biggest nerf, I would say it's nearly as hard as Lesh.
Undying got buffed, don't know what Icefrog is smoking. Hero now has no drawbacks, coz he scales amazingly. His early is weaker, but late game significantly stronger.
Seems like froggie boy was sick of tb being either too op or too up so he just scrapped the hero concept
yeah that ogre buff hahaha guy was already untouchable in lane
yeah finally some nerfs for storm, that is actually good. Hopefully his winrate will decrease for a bit. But you know, you cant balance storm. That hero will never be trash tier, always be either top pick or as alternative.